Integrating 2 channel speakers with a home cinema

[Blacksabbath25]

Interested in buying a AV amplifier but wondering how I use my Dali's as the main left and rights for home cinema as well as having them connected to the Yamaha A-S2100 for music

As I've been looking at the spec's but there are a lot of theses Av amplifiers only do 8ohm load as my speakers are 4ohms so do you still keep the Dali's connected to the A-S2100 and then make the link between the two amplifiers as I do not want to use the Av for music only movies .

I am looking for a Av amplifier with a good spec but do not want to go nuts on stuff I do not need I have a Yamaha WXC-50 pre for streaming so I was just looking for 5.1 . I understand that a lot of Av's come with airplay as standard which would make the Yamaha WXC redundant .I will be using a sub ,with the Dali's center speaker that matches my L+R and maybe Zensor 1s for backs .

 

[abacus]

The big advantage an AV Receiver has over a Hi-Fi amplifier, is that they have room correction software built in, which means unless you have a dedicated acoustically treated room, they will give a more accurately balanced sound than a Hi-Fi amplifier, (Some users switch on pure direct thinking it improves the sound, however the part it improves is that small, it is not normally worth it. (All it does is remove room compensation)

You have 2 options

1. Sell your amplifier and go something like an Arcam or Anthem Receiver, which are top notch with music, and have room correction systems that are as good as professional equipment.

2. Make sure your Receiver has pre-amp outputs that you can feed into your amplifier, that way your amplifier will power the front speakers for both what is connected to your Hi-Fi amp and Receiver, leaving the Receiver to just power the rest. (NOTE room correction will only be applied when using your Receiver, and anything connected to your amp will just be flat)

Best way is to pop along to your local dealer and have a listen to different combinations, as everybody is different.

Hope this helps

Bill

 

[Blacksabbath25]

The big advantage an AV Receiver has over a Hi-Fi amplifier, is that they have room correction software built in, which means unless you have a dedicated acoustically treated room, they will give a more accurately balanced sound than a Hi-Fi amplifier, (Some users switch on pure direct thinking it improves the sound, however the part it improves is that small, it is not normally worth it. (All it does is remove room compensation)

You have 2 options

1. Sell your amplifier and go something like an Arcam or Anthem Receiver, which are top notch with music, and have room correction systems that are as good as professional equipment.

2. Make sure your Receiver has pre-amp outputs that you can feed into your amplifier, that way your amplifier will power the front speakers for both what is connected to your Hi-Fi amp and Receiver, leaving the Receiver to just power the rest. (NOTE room correction will only be applied when using your Receiver, and anything connected to your amp will just be flat)

Best way is to pop along to your local dealer and have a listen to different combinations, as everybody is different.

Hope this helps

Bill

I do not want to get rid of my Yamaha A-S2100 to replace it with a Av amplifier that's out of the question .

yes my amplifier has pre -outs and I can change the way my amplifier is setup i.e. Pre or use it as a power amplifier which this would be a complete wast of a amplifier so the pre-out section would be the way to go so I can carry on using it as a music amplifier .

now in regards to the room correction software that a Av amplifier has i understand this will not work with my L+Rs but before companies like Yamaha started putting room correction software on Av amplifiers I used to have to workout the distances and delays manually myself as there was no software back in the 1990s so Can I manually setup the L+Rs this way still with a modern Av amplifier ?

i probably stick with a Yamaha Av amplifier as I like the quality of there stuff so I was looking at the 1060 any good ?

 

[Leeps]

if you stuck with Yamaha for your AV receiver, it would come with MusicCast. So you could relegate your WXC-50 to another room and have your AV receiver and other room playing at the same time in sync - if that floated your boat, but if that's your primary music source, you may not want to to that.

If you use the pre-outs from an AV receiver into an integrated amplifier, which in turn powers your main left & right speakers, you will need to remember to set your integrated amp at a set volume each time you want to use your multi-channel system, unless your integrated amplifier has a "home theatre bypass" feature that turns one of your inputs on the integrated amp into a power amplifier only.

Remember in multi-channel use, it's the AV receiver that sets the volume for ALL your speakers.

So this process is much easier if your amp has AV bypass, or at least a visual display that indicates the volume level. If you forget, have your integrated volume set too high, select the AV input and power up your AV receiver, you could damage your speakers.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I will have to look that one up about home theater bypassing on my amplifier as I do not know

I have trigger inputs on the back of the A-S2100 but think they are for turning on any units that in the loop i.e. My cdplayer or a Av amplifier but think all this will do is turn the unit on but not control volume levels so it's in line of the Av amplifier volume . Or have I got the wrong thinking here ?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I was also thinking now I've looked around buying the Dali opticon LCRs which are quite flat speakers so will not take to much room up but they are £500 each and I would need 3 as one of them I would have to turn the ribbon tweeter so it's right for a center speaker .

i did look at the other center speaker that Dali does but it's too big and how would I mount it on the wall

 

[Leeps]

Another way of skinning this particular cat, especially if your integrated amp doesn't have an AV bypass input, would be to keep the systems completely separate. Normally this could have the effect of making your lounge look like it's got more stock than your local Richer Sounds, but if you had a subwoofer / satellite system and wall-mounted the satellites, it has a much smaller visual impact.

If this seemed a possible option, I'd recommend trying to pick up some Monitor Audio Apex A10's (they often come up on Ebay and are usually well looked after) or their cheaper cousins, the Monitor Audio Radius R90's.

Sub / sat systems can sound brilliant with full surround sound sources. The only downside is when you're watching TV on the BBC with 2-channel content - it'll never sound as good as your full-range stereo speakers. So that's when you get into the realms of trying to combine the systems after all and it can get complicated.

I've gone through similar quandaries to you over the years as my system is primarily for music. I have toyed with going completely over to stereo, but surround adds so much to the whole movie experience that I'd really miss it. So for me, I'd either go for a very musically capable AV receiver (and they do exist) or a stereo integrated amp that has an AV bypass input.

It's worth noting though that over the years I've seen a few adverts for stereo amps where people have gone down this route by using the pre-outs from their AV receivers but for whatever reason didn't like the faff they've ended up with and have sold their integrateds. So I'm personally veering more towards an AV receiver.

The main issue these days with AV receivers (IMO) is not the quality of their preamps: the digital front ends of these machines are getting better and better. But the issue is with their power supplies and therefore their ability to grip speakers when their power supplies are trying to feed an ever increasing number of channels. The way round that is with a decent power amplifier.

 

[Samd]

but I love my auto switch which connects front speakers to either stereo amp or AVR whichever is in use. I am aware purists don't like the mechanical connection and it may fail over time (they are not expensive really) but I challenge anyone to hear a difference when in use!

 

[macdiddy]

Just buy a decent A/V amp (something over £800) with pre-outs to all channels, any amp at this price will have the power to drive your speakers to decent levels in the average living room (unless you live in the Royal Albert hall) but if you do then the pre-out option will allow you to add external power amps.

I have done what Leeps suggested and tried to run two separate systems in one room (one cd/vinyl 2ch and the other a 9.2 spk setup), it was great at first but I soon got tired of having to power up each system whether I was in the mood for some music of if I wanted to watch a movie.

To cut a long story short, I unplugged the 2ch system and now only use the one system for everything, its just so much easier and the room no longer looks like a branch of Richer sounds.

*music2*

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I hear what you are all saying but I love my A-S2100 and just can not bring myself to part from it .

it would have to be one special Av amplifier to make me part from the A-S2100 I understand that I will not know until I go for a demo but I would be looking at the high end Av amplifiers from Yamaha something like the 1060 upwards .

 

[Native_bon]

I say go and demo some Av amps then take it from there. You may be surprised with performance of Av amps these days.
Only you may need to fork out a bit for good 2channel performance.

 

[Leeps]

I hear what you are all saying but I love my A-S2100 and just can not bring myself to part from it .

If you like your stereo set-up that much, then I'd stick with it and learn to be content with it and appreciate what it does well.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I hear what you are all saying but I love my A-S2100 and just can not bring myself to part from it .

If you like your stereo set-up that much, then I'd stick with it and learn to be content with it and appreciate what it does well.

I've just found out that I have main direct input on the back of my amplifier so I will be able to start looking for a Av amplifier now .

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Best option, audio wise, is two completely different systems. But, as someone said, you end up with a room looking like Richer Sounds. That's where I am, kind of, right now, with in-wall speakers for AV and a pair of mediocre Klipsch floorstanders for "proper stereo" duty. Thankfully I don't have a proper stereo amp to drive the Klipschs with at the mo, so I don't have to put up with their horrible sound. IF / when I get my 140 inch wallpaper TV or 4K PJ and screen, the in-wall speakers will be hidden from view entirely, and I just have to find the right pair of "squat" stereo speakers to go with a mid to high end amp and DAC (or integrated amp and DAC or....) - source will be FLACs streamed directly from a PC. CDs are so 20th century, after all....

Second best, IMHO, is to hook up the front left and right pre-amp outputs of a suitably equipped AVR to the Aux or Video or whatever inputs on a suitably equiiped integrated or pre-amp. You still get the benefits of a "proper stereo" for blasting out your favourite Brummies, but when you switch to watching BDs or DVDs your stereo speakers take the place of the front left and front right speakers in your surround set.

That having been said, it helps if your stereo speakers are placed symmetrically either side of your TV. And it probably works best if you can use a centre speaker from the same stable, preferably the same stable and series, as well.

Third best, IHO, is to use your AVR for "proper stereo" duties alone. As far as I'm concerned, and even though thye've improved immensely, AVRs still aren't on a par with mid to high end "proper stereo" gear for "proper stereo" duties. Just my opinion, mind you, and others, no doubt, will differ, tell you that AVRS sound better than stereos, that it's pointless buying anything more expensive than a 100-quid Argos stereo.....

 

[Blacksabbath25]

hi i found out that i do have a main out on my A-S2100 and pre-outs so it is possable to run my opticon's from my A-S2100 and then connect from main to what ever Av i buy and run just backs and center + sub for 5.1 for now .

i am thinking of getting the LCRs from dali as they do not take to much room up but the trouble is they are £499 each as they are from the opticon range so should be a good match .

my issue is what Av to go for as most of the yamaha Av power supply's are not that big in the lower end of the range so they start getting good with the yamaha Av 8060 upwards .

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I have some more questions to ask

ones I buy what ever Av I decided to get when I connect the 2 amplifiers together how do they act together . when I turn the volume up on my Av volume will the A-S2100 follow to match the volume of the Av amplifier when watching a film or have I got to muck around with 2 volume controls

the other question is when I set the room up for sound levels will the Av amplifier take notice of my main L+R speakers in the setup menu .

 

[ellisdj]

What andrewjt has been trying to explain is when you wire into the home theatre bypass of whatever it is called input on your yamaha 2100 it will bypass its preamp and volume control. Eseentially making it a slave power amp same as any slave power amp.

In the avr the trim levels will be set and that will balance your 5.1 channel levels for a balanced soundstage same as normal.

Then avr is the preamp so the overall volume of the whole system is controlled by the avr

 

[Blacksabbath25]

What andrewjt has been trying to explain is when you wire into the home theatre bypass of whatever it is called input on your yamaha 2100 it will bypass its preamp and volume control. Eseentially making it a slave power amp same as any slave power amp.

In the avr the trim levels will be set and that will balance your 5.1 channel levels for a balanced soundstage same as normal.

Then avr is the preamp so the overall volume of the whole system is controlled by the avr

ok I understand now so my A-S2100 turns into a power amplifier and the Av amplifier controls the lot . It just got a bit confusing when he mentioned that my volume on the A-S2100 goes to full which I did not like the idea of .

 

[ellisdj]

What andrewjt has been trying to explain is when you wire into the home theatre bypass of whatever it is called input on your yamaha 2100 it will bypass its preamp and volume control. Eseentially making it a slave power amp same as any slave power amp.

In the avr the trim levels will be set and that will balance your 5.1 channel levels for a balanced soundstage same as normal.

Then avr is the preamp so the overall volume of the whole system is controlled by the avr

ok I understand now so my A-S2100 turns into a power amplifier and the Av amplifier controls the lot . It just got a bit confusing when he mentioned that my volume on the A-S2100 goes to full which I did not like the idea of .

He just meant it wont be limited by the volume control on the yamaha 2100 so essentially 100% being available not 100% being on at all times.

 

[Native_bon]

Most bypass 2 Channel amps I used in the pass make a clicking sound when it's in power amp mode. Just select Av bypass and you ready to go.

The only draw back is imbalance of main L/R to center and surround speakers.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

^ The clicking may have been something unique to your amp or AVR, otherwise it may be a short or something that was causing a trip switch to, erm, trip, over and over.

As for sound and tonal balance, yes, it can be a problem, but it can be minimised by using a similar calibre centre speaker, ideally of the same brand and series as your main fronts (best is probably a third front lying on its side), or at the very least with similar size cones, power rating, sensitivity, etc.

Surround sound speaker imbalances can usually be tuned out by running the system EQ properly then adjusting the levels manually to suit your room and your ears. A lot of people (me included) do the latter anyway, so that we can hear the surround sound effects more clearly, so that we can hear that they're working, and to impress the visitors ;-) But don't expect 10-99 PC speakers from Argos to match up with stacks of 400-watt Marshalls