Integrated or Power Amplifier??

JMac

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I've been thinking lately (again) about my system upgrades and I was thinking, do I actually need an integrated amp or could I just use a straight power amplfier?

All my music is now electronically stored so I was thinking that I could connect the power amp straight to my DAC and use the PC for volume level control etc. Is this correct?
 

Vladimir

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If your speakers need a lot of power or you prefer Class A amps, the best way is to have power section separately. Otherwise there are disputable benefits from separating pre and power. Most of the money in separates goes in the case, not the innards.
 

Glacialpath

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Hmm not sure if this is right but I think using the PC for volume will adjust the signal streangth that the DAC is getting as the volume is esentially before the DAC in the chain. I might be wrong. I use CD but have a DAC in my set up. Of course the DAC is straight after the CD plater that goes to my control amp then ofcourse my power amp and last of all my speakers.

I know the DAC is recieving a digital signal so really nothing should physically change the signal. That's how my mind works though lol. I would personall have the volume control after the DAC and leave the PC volume on full or even bypass it.
 

Vladimir

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Power amps without volume control always send out their maximum power to the speakers.

If the DAC has a preamp with volume control then go for straight power amp. If the only volume control is digital from the PC, this is very dangerous and only one mistake, or even just a pop, will fry the speakers or the amp or both.

You can buy a power amp with volume control for each channel. Roksan power amps have volume trimmers on the back. You can set them at 50% and be worry free.
 

Hayche

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Depends on your budget but do not use pc volume into a power amp you are relying on your OS to not blow your speakers or amps. Use a dac with a pre. I highly recommend audiolab mdac into a croft series 7
 

MaxD

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JMac said:
I've been thinking lately (again) about my system upgrades and I was thinking, do I actually need an integrated amp or could I just use a straight power amplfier?

All my music is now electronically stored so I was thinking that I could connect the power amp straight to my DAC and use the PC for volume level control etc. Is this correct?

A separated pre and final will always be better, not only for sound quality, also becouse if you buy a high class amp that suite your needs, you can change pre when yoiu do have different needs or swapping them for different use. For example: for a very long time I had a Macintosh final in my living room and I connected it with so many pre gears, even mixers like Tascam for home recordings.

A dedicated final is always a dedicated final (very flexible) and I will personally go again for it when I will assemble my living room new hi-fi rack. And I will probably connect it to my actual home reacording studio, the iPad Air.

I agree with others it is better to have hardware volume controls on your pre or final to avoid problems and burn your gears.
 

JMac

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Okay, I'm convinced its not the way to go. I was looking at a Used Roksan M2 Power Amp thats for sale for half the price of the integrated.
 

davedotco

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JMac said:
I've been thinking lately (again) about my system upgrades and I was thinking, do I actually need an integrated amp or could I just use a straight power amplfier?

All my music is now electronically stored so I was thinking that I could connect the power amp straight to my DAC and use the PC for volume level control etc. Is this correct?

As you see, a fair few people are missing the point, not exactly unusual on here.

It rather depends on the functionality you want and need. Computer with volume, to fixed output dac, to power amp is an elegant solution in many ways. It is however not at all flexible, extra sources need to have their own volume control for example.

For a more flexible system I think the way forward is a simple dac/preamp feeding a power amp. Dac/preamps come at all prices from around £100 to any price you care to name, however if you are looking for a full function, remote control unit from a mainstream hi-fi manufacturer you are looking at fairly serious M-Dac money.

One of my favourites is the Aune X1, a very decent and flexible dac/preamp, often available in the UK from online retailers at about £150.

20121226103202927.jpg
 

Vladimir

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JMac said:
Okay, I'm convinced its not the way to go. I was looking at a Used Roksan M2 Power Amp thats for sale for half the price of the integrated.

You can add two power amps to the Caspian M2 if need be. ;)
 

unsleepable

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davedotco said:
As you see, a fair few people are missing the point, not exactly unusual on here.

It rather depends on the functionality you want and need. Computer with volume, to fixed output dac, to power amp is an elegant solution in many ways. It is however not at all flexible, extra sources need to have their own volume control for example.

I am not so sure that using a DAC without volume control straight into a power amp is just a matter of flexibility. Even if the volume can be atenuated in the digital signal, the output voltage of the DAC will be similar to that of a preamp at maximum volume. In the best of cases, the outcome of this is that the background noise introduced by the source and the DAC will be amplified to the maximum gain of the power amp.
 

davedotco

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unsleepable said:
davedotco said:
As you see, a fair few people are missing the point, not exactly unusual on here.

It rather depends on the functionality you want and need. Computer with volume, to fixed output dac, to power amp is an elegant solution in many ways. It is however not at all flexible, extra sources need to have their own volume control for example.

I am not so sure that using a DAC without volume control straight into a power amp is just a matter of flexibility. Even if the volume can be atenuated in the digital signal, the output voltage of the DAC will be similar to that of a preamp at maximum volume. In the best of cases, the outcome of this is that the background noise introduced by the source and the DAC will be amplified to the maximum gain of the power amp.

It is cetainly true that some noise may be passed unintentially but I would have thought, in competent dacs and sources with reasonably low noise, this should not be a problem.

That said, the configuration that I am most familier with usually involve active monitors, which have a level control for volume matching which I invariably turn down.

On reflection I think that the simple approach of fixed level dac may not be for the best, without trying a few examples I am now not sure just how well that will work in the case of hi-fi separates.

Good point unsleepable.
 

unsleepable

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I can see how with active speakers this kind of setup would work better.

I think that with a power amp it would still be doable—it just wouldn't be easy to get it right.

On the one hand, there is the issue of voltage matching between the DAC and the power amp. This is also something to take into account when pairing preamps and power amps, but in this case having a volume knob gives some flexibility—if the voltage given by the preamp is a bit high, the volume knob will be mostly down, and the other way around. With a DAC that gives a fixed voltage, the power amp would have to be chosen carefuly. I don't know what would happen if the power amp constantly received a voltage higher than its specified input—would it clip or get damaged even if the volume has been digitally atenuated? No clue.

Another aspect to consider that would affect both active speakers and a power amp is the volume control itself. OS X for example doesn't do digital volume control—I don't know if Windows does. If the DAC can adjust the volume, this will only be possible when it is connected through USB as the control order cannot be sent through TOSLINK.

Even so, sound quality is quickly deteriorated when the volume is reduced digitally, simply because information is lost. This would particularly affect a setup with a power amp since the volume will have to be attenuated more than with active speakers. A solution for this would be to increase the bit-depth before adjusting the volume—so if playing 16-bit material, converting it to 32-bit and then modifying the volume. So the DAC would need to be able to do this. My irDac, for example, can adjust the volume digitally, and I suppose that it does it at 24-bit since that is the bit-depth at which it connects with the computer. Bit I think that 24-bit would not be enough to do this effectively, it would surely be better to have a 32-bit DAC.

Another possibility to be able to reduce the sound without losing quality would be having the bit-depth conversion and volume control done by the player software, which would allow connecting the DAC through the TOSLINK port. I know that BitPerfect for example does this—and I suppose that other audiophile-grade players do it too. But the DAC would still need to be able to work with the increased bit-depth of 32-bit.

So I think that this setup would be possible, but the noise would need to be kept at bay and all other things considered. If using active speakers, it would be much easier with just having to worry about the digital volume control, which is also feasible.
 

unsleepable

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So I got curious about the setup proposed in this thread, connecting a DAC directly to a power amplifier. Even though I argued that it would be difficult to get it right, I decided to give it a try with my own system.

What I've done is connect my irDac directly to the Arcam P38, and compare its sound to what is now my regular system, in which I use an A19 as preamp. I must say that I'm quite surprised with the results, which make this setup much more workable than I would have expected.

In short, my findings are:

* Sound tonality is the same as when using the A19 as preamp. I had already tested this previously with the irDac, and confirmed that it does not colour the sound in any way. The preamp section of the A19 doesn't either, as removing it from the chain does not alter the sound balance. Voicing is apparently done only by the power amp. There may be differences… But it's difficult to perform an A/B test with this setup, and all I can say is that my first impression is that the sound balance is the same.

* There is actually quite noticeable less background noise!—tested both pausing the audio so that the DAC keeps being on, and playing an audio file with just silence; in both cases, at maximum volume. This was my main concern and, at least with the irDac, it has proved to be ungrounded. The fact that there is more background noise with the A19 might be because its preamp section has some gain, so that it increases the background noise of the P38 in comparison to the irDac. Even if this was the case, the important fact is that the irDac straight into the P38 does not introduce lots of background noise as I would have thought.

* There is absolutely no audible cross-talking—tested disabling one channel in the computer, physically disconnecting the speaker corresponding to the other channel, and playing music at maximum volume. Using the A19 as preamp, a little cross-talking can be heard when listening close to the connected speaker.

On the downsides:

* Volume is controlled in 1 dB increments, instead of the 0.5 dB that the A19 allows for. To those of us who like to play music at low volume late at night, this might matter.

* The volume must be adjusted in the computer, as the volume buttons of remote control of the irDac change the volume of the amplifier, not its own internal volume. A remote control for the computer, or even a phone app, would be a solution for this.

* Music loses definition at very low volume, more so the more the volume is attenuated. I've tested this late at night, once my ears have accustomed to not hearing any sound. Music clearly becomes less sparkling and livelier, and some finesse is lost, even though the irDac works at 24-bit. This issue is more relevant the more powerful the power amp is, so it would be mitigated with a less powerful amp, or using active speakers with a gain control and setting it to the minimum possible that is practical. With a 32-bit DAC, it might not be an issue at all.

Also, something to take into account is that when the volume is set on the USB port, it does not affect other ports such as TOSLINK. Therefore, another device plugged to a different port will play at maximum volume unless this is adjusted at the source. I tested this with my Airport Express. Bad thing if you have this setup and let guests play some music through Airplay from their own phones.

Anyways, all these are quirks of the irDac rather than of the setup itself. I think there is no reason that a DAC couldn't have its volume managed by its remote control, so that it controls all inputs and does it in 0.5 dB increments. On the other hand, the irDac handles background noise superbly, and sounds brilliantly. I still think that background noise may have been an issue with another DAC.

I see different scenarios where this setup would work very well, and it would have advantages over using a preamp just for volume attenuation, when there are no analogue sources.
 

davedotco

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unsleepable said:
So I got curious about the setup proposed in this thread, connecting a DAC directly to a power amplifier. Even though I argued that it would be difficult to get it right, I decided to give it a try with my own system.

What I've done is connect my irDac directly to the Arcam P38, and compare its sound to what is now my regular system, in which I use an A19 as preamp. I must say that I'm quite surprised with the results, which make this setup much more workable than I would have expected.

In short, my findings are:

* Sound tonality is the same as when using the A19 as preamp. I had already tested this previously with the irDac, and confirmed that it does not colour the sound in any way. The preamp section of the A19 doesn't either, as removing it from the chain does not alter the sound balance. Voicing is apparently done only by the power amp. There may be differences… But it's difficult to perform an A/B test with this setup, and all I can say is that my first impression is that the sound balance is the same.

* There is actually quite noticeable less background noise!—tested both pausing the audio so that the DAC keeps being on, and playing an audio file with just silence; in both cases, at maximum volume. This was my main concern and, at least with the irDac, it has proved to be ungrounded. The fact that there is more background noise with the A19 might be because its preamp section has some gain, so that it increases the background noise of the P38 in comparison to the irDac. Even if this was the case, the important fact is that the irDac straight into the P38 does not introduce lots of background noise as I would have thought.

* There is absolutely no audible cross-talking—tested disabling one channel in the computer, physically disconnecting the speaker corresponding to the other channel, and playing music at maximum volume. Using the A19 as preamp, a little cross-talking can be heard when listening close to the connected speaker.

On the downsides:

* Volume is controlled in 1 dB increments, instead of the 0.5 dB that the A19 allows for. To those of us who like to play music at low volume late at night, this might matter.

* The volume must be adjusted in the computer, as the volume buttons of remote control of the irDac change the volume of the amplifier, not its own internal volume. A remote control for the computer, or even a phone app, would be a solution for this.

* Music loses definition at very low volume, more so the more the volume is attenuated. I've tested this late at night, once my ears have accustomed to not hearing any sound. Music clearly becomes less sparkling and livelier, and some finesse is lost, even though the irDac works at 24-bit. This issue is more relevant the more powerful the power amp is, so it would be mitigated with a less powerful amp, or using active speakers with a gain control and setting it to the minimum possible that is practical. With a 32-bit DAC, it might not be an issue at all.

Also, something to take into account is that when the volume is set on the USB port, it does not affect other ports such as TOSLINK. Therefore, another device plugged to a different port will play at maximum volume unless this is adjusted at the source. I tested this with my Airport Express. Bad thing if you have this setup and let guests play some music through Airplay from their own phones.

Anyways, all these are quirks of the irDac rather than of the setup itself. I think there is no reason that a DAC couldn't have its volume managed by its remote control, so that it controls all inputs and does it in 0.5 dB increments. On the other hand, the irDac handles background noise superbly, and sounds brilliantly. I still think that background noise may have been an issue with another DAC.

I see different scenarios where this setup would work very well, and it would have advantages over using a preamp just for volume attenuation, when there are no analogue sources.

A very comprehensive test and writeup.....*good*

A lot of modern systems use computers as the sole signal source so the computer>power amp>speaker rout is, in many ways a very elegant one.

You highlight the two most obvious issues very well, the use of software based volume control is at the heart of them both. The lack of precision, ie 1dB steps may well be an issue in practical use though in my setup, with active speakers, it does not appear to be a problem.

Secondly, that you can hear a lack of clatity and refinement at very low levels is interesting too, for a digital volume control to have any chance of impacting on sound quality, you have to 'lose' at least 8 bits, ie a volume attenuation of some 48dB. This could be audible at very low levels as you describe but it is worth bearing in mind that some power amplifiers have increased distortion at very low levels.

Whatever the cause, a lack of clarity and refinement might well be an issue with some users so I think it highlights the advantage of a 'gain matching' volume control on the power amplifier or active speakers.

This volume control is used as a preset, in my system the computer is set to full volume, the speaker volume controls are then set to a level that is the loudest I would normally use and left. For proper listening the software volume is simply set to maximum and when turned down for background, it remains close to the top of it's range. This seems to work well with no noticeable issues in terms of sound quality.

Bear in mind that many power amplifiers have gain/volume controls too, not the Arcam obviously but most pro/studio types and some hi-fi units do. This means that a power amp/passive speaker setup can be used in the same way as the active setup described above.
 

unsleepable

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Thanks for your feedback!

Your comment about the 48 dB makes a lot of sense. When testing for differences at low volume, the computer was set at -54 dB according to Audio MIDI Setup, and the amplifier at volume 15—which, taking into account that it has 99 steps of 0.5 dB, corresponds to -42 dB. I had noticed because I was trying to match the volume by these figures, but that didn't work—maybe because the output of the irDac is line-level?

So a 32-bit DAC playing 16-bit music would allow for 96 dB headroom, which would have worked well with the P38. Or for active speakers, a 24-bit DAC should be more than enough in most cases.
 

davedotco

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unsleepable said:
Thanks for your feedback!

Your comment about the 48 dB makes a lot of sense. When testing for differences at low volume, the computer was set at -54 dB according to Audio MIDI Setup, and the amplifier at volume 15—which, taking into account that it has 99 steps of 0.5 dB, corresponds to -42 dB. I had noticed because I was trying to match the volume by these figures, but that didn't work—maybe because the output of the irDac is line-level?

So a 32-bit DAC playing 16-bit music would allow for 96 dB headroom, which would have worked well with the P38. Or for active speakers, a 24-bit DAC should be more than enough in most cases.

To be honest, in normal use a 24bit processor which most dacs/software players have should be more than adequate, it is also debateable whether a resolution of just 14 bits (another 12dB down in level) would be audible anyway.

I do not for one minute doubt a lowering of fidelity at such levels, whether it is due to bit reduction or some other factor is open to investigation.

Hovever, a level matched system allows you to use the digital volume at or close to full volume, simply 'good practice' in my view.
 

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