I'm all for the underdog

[nopiano]

Again, look at the Cyrus displays and then look at the HIFI Rose RA520 display. They are miles apart in design philosophy and features and if HIFI Rose carry on making kit like the RA520, I'm sure they won't be a lesser known brand for much longer.

Are you referring to the Rose RS520? The one that costs £3,399?

If their labelling is confusing it might have an impact on sales.

 

[podknocker]

Are you referring to the Rose RS520? The one that costs £3,399?

If their labelling is confusing it might have an impact on sales.

Well spotted!

Apologies. It's a mixture of typos and being tired! Had a full litre of Red Bull too.

Yes, you're right, it's the RS520 I keep banging on about.

I'm unsure if it's worth £3399 but then I take a look at the £2395 PSU-XR from Cyrus, as I shake my head in disbelief.

Again, I'm not a Cyrus basher, but wake up people, it's overpriced and tired kit.

It doesn't help having very similar product ranges, in slightly different colours.

'Why don't you pay a fortune for our second best products and always feel disappointed?'

They could stick to one excellent XR range and lower the price to match the range below and still make a healthy profit.

Too much choice can be a bad thing.

 

[manicm]

I have a good chuckle at those defending Naim etc against the HiFi Rose RA520, often citing 'service concerns' etc. That's the usual excuse. But often established brands leave customers floundering when it's time to service, time and time again. That excuse becomes flimsier day by day, as is the obsession with being made in China. Naim produces in both UK and China. Get the hell over it.
To a newcomer with disposable income, the HiFi Rose on paper concedes nothing to the equivalent Naim Uniti Nova Power at over twice the price, with both having Class D amplification, or slight variations thereof.

And here's at least one good review of the RA520, https://www.hifinews.com/content/hifi-rose-rs520-streaming-amplifier

 

[Oxfordian]

There's a nice one-pager by Andrew Everard in the latest edition of Gramophone, where he challenges the need for having the latest version of something, and is very open about saying a new one isn't necessarily better than the old model, just different.

He cites the reason for new models or versions can be as much down to changes in component availability etc. as it is down to tangible improvements, and I think this is very much an issue with brands who source most of the internals from 3rd party suppliers.

It would be easy to accuse Rega of being lazy. The Brio has changed very little in about 15 years. Yes, the 2017 re-style added a headphone socket and some tweaks, but it's essentially the same amp as the Brio-R in most respects. Why? Because the design works, and it's still a fantastic affordable amplifier. Why mess with it?

Where Rega fall short is in affordable sources beyond turntables. They discontinued the Apollo CD player, and the DAC-R disappeared years ago with no replacement. They don't make a streamer of any kind either. I suspect it's because they stick to what they do best, amplification and turntables, and who can blame them?

At Bristol I was fascinated by the room housing Dual turntables and Advance Paris electronics. The top-end AP system on demonstration was excellent, and they also displayed some very interesting budget models - real Marantz/Denon/Cambridge competitors. I'd love to spend a bit of time with their CD player and integrated amp, but also with the £850 one-box. The Dual turntables are also of interest.

Marantz and Denon have become as lazy as any of the British makers - the 6007 range, for example, has been around quite some time now, and the 6000-series has only gently evolved rather than bringing substantial steps forward in sound.

With any industry is there not a point at which further development of a product or range is all but pointless as there are no discernible improvements?

In Rega's defence the possibility must exist where the digital side of their business may not be profitable at the entry level of the market, they simply cannot produce the products and make a reasonable margin on them. So it is easier to step away and let others with a lower cost base fill that spot and focus their brand on what they do best.

 

[Oxfordian]

I have a good chuckle at those defending Naim etc against the HiFi Rose RA520, often citing 'service concerns' etc. That's the usual excuse. But often established brands leave customers floundering when it's time to service, time and time again. That excuse becomes flimsier day by day, as is the obsession with being made in China. Naim produces in both UK and China. Get the hell over it.
To a newcomer with disposable income, the HiFi Rose on paper concedes nothing to the equivalent Naim Uniti Nova Power at over twice the price, with both having Class D amplification, or slight variations thereof.

And here's at least one good review of the RA520, https://www.hifinews.com/content/hifi-rose-rs520-streaming-amplifier

I would pick a Naim product (or other UK company including Cyrus) over something built in the far east any day of the week, not because the product is necessarily better but because I have faith that the product can be repaired beyond the warranty in the UK, as yet I haven't seen that with products coming in from China, Korea and the like.

Here's an example why although it's not HiFi based

I have a rather nice Japanese camera, pro spec, I bought in second had with less than 1000 images being taken, the cameras are renowned for their reliability and expected to last for around 300K before issues should arise.

The camera failed, it couldn't be sorted in the UK so went to the European base instead, they couldn't sort it so it ended up having to go home all the way back to Japan, six months later I was told that it was fixed and would be returned to me, that took another month. I was lucky that I had a second camera I could use but that probably wouldn't apply with a failed HiFi unit.

Thankfully all the costs were covered under the store's warranty, but my point is that to fix this issue, my product from the far east had to go home, what is the set-up for HiFi Rose, where do their products go if they need remedial attention?

A lot of companies have links with the far east, I have products that are built in China or assembled with parts that are produced in China, I'm not anti far east products I just have more faith that when I swipe my card and put my pin in the £3500 or so that I am spending on HiFi is going to last me a long long time and not end up in a year or two as an expensive doorstop if I buy from UK companies.

In the end where you or I spend our money and on what is immaterial as long as each of us is content with what we have purchased.

 

[manicm]

I would pick a Naim product (or other UK company including Cyrus) over something built in the far east any day of the week, not because the product is necessarily better but because I have faith that the product can be repaired beyond the warranty in the UK, as yet I haven't seen that with products coming in from China, Korea and the like.

Here's an example why although it's not HiFi based

I have a rather nice Japanese camera, pro spec, I bought in second had with less than 1000 images being taken, the cameras are renowned for their reliability and expected to last for around 300K before issues should arise.

The camera failed, it couldn't be sorted in the UK so went to the European base instead, they couldn't sort it so it ended up having to go home all the way back to Japan, six months later I was told that it was fixed and would be returned to me, that took another month. I was lucky that I had a second camera I could use but that probably wouldn't apply with a failed HiFi unit.

Thankfully all the costs were covered under the store's warranty, but my point is that to fix this issue, my product from the far east had to go home, what is the set-up for HiFi Rose, where do their products go if they need remedial attention?

A lot of companies have links with the far east, I have products that are built in China or assembled with parts that are produced in China, I'm not anti far east products I just have more faith that when I swipe my card and put my pin in the £3500 or so that I am spending on HiFi is going to last me a long long time and not end up in a year or two as an expensive doorstop if I buy from UK companies.

In the end where you or I spend our money and on what is immaterial as long as each of us is content with what we have purchased.

Your lower end Naim products are made in China. And many products are made in other Asian countries . Very few Canon, Nikon etc cameras are made in Japan.


So the reliability argument still doesn't wash with me.

 

[davidf]

Coming in late on this one, so I've skimmed the thread.

Those that know me know how I feel about lesser known brands, but I think Exposure stand out as one of those. While the likes of Naim took the lion's share of sales during the 90s, Exposure were always there in the background. Naim has now gone up astronomically, but Exposure hasn't. And for me, Naim isn't Naim any more. Exposure still make their products in the same way they always have, and still using conventional components (ie, not micro components) which means they're easily serviceable. Granted, there's been a couple of prices rises this decade, but no manufacturer has been immune to that. Still affordable though, and still good quality old school hi-fi for those that want it. And still British made too.

 

[davidf]

Accidentally hit post before finishing..

As for lesser known brands, I'm not really a fan of the modern Chi-Fi movement for a number of reasons. Apart from slave labor, questionable practices with regards to use of chemicals and the disposal of hazardous byproducts of manufacturing processes, as well as after sales service - I don't feel China are particularly interested in the future of this planet's well being, they just want to reap the benefits of manufacturing in the here and now. Same with any electrical components coming out of China, including TVs , phones, computers etc.

There's plenty of European hi-fi manufacturers out there to satisfy those who want something different, it's just that they don't get the preferential treatment from the British hi-fi press.

 

[Al ears]

Your lower end Naim products are made in China. And many products are made in other Asian countries . Very few Canon, Nikon etc cameras are made in Japan.


So the reliability argument still doesn't wash with me.

i think, at the end of the day, it is irrelevant where it was made It's more like where do you have to ship it back to for repairs , if and when you might need to.
If there's a UK dealer then that's half the problem sorted...

 

[Dom]

I would like to think off brand can offer better sound quality, at least in the budget sector.

 

[Oxfordian]

Your lower end Naim products are made in China. And many products are made in other Asian countries . Very few Canon, Nikon etc cameras are made in Japan.


So the reliability argument still doesn't wash with me.

Sorry but Nikon do still make cameras in Japan and my camera was made in Japan, a lot of Nikon's lower priced products are made in Taiwan, Vietnam is now also used as well as China.

Whether you agree with me or not regarding reliability is immaterial, my point is where do you send your far east produced product if/when it goes wrong? Hopefully it won't.

 

[manicm]

i think, at the end of the day, it is irrelevant where it was made It's more like where do you have to ship it back to for repairs , if and when you might need to.
If there's a UK dealer then that's half the problem sorted...

Sorry but Nikon do still make cameras in Japan and my camera was made in Japan, a lot of Nikon's lower priced products are made in Taiwan, Vietnam is now also used as well as China.

Whether you agree with me or not regarding reliability is immaterial, my point is where do you send your far east produced product if/when it goes wrong? Hopefully it won't.

It's only the very high-end Nikons and Canons that are made in Japan. So if you're buying a mid-range camera, you're still dependent on getting parts from China or wherever.

Unless you're buying Linn equipment, chances are any parts required will still come from the Far East.

The only important thing is local backup service, and whether repairs can be carried out. Where the product is made today is completely meaningless.

 

[Oxfordian]

Coming in late on this one, so I've skimmed the thread.

Those that know me know how I feel about lesser known brands, but I think Exposure stand out as one of those. While the likes of Naim took the lion's share of sales during the 90s, Exposure were always there in the background. Naim has now gone up astronomically, but Exposure hasn't. And for me, Naim isn't Naim any more. Exposure still make their products in the same way they always have, and still using conventional components (ie, not micro components) which means they're easily serviceable. Granted, there's been a couple of prices rises this decade, but no manufacturer has been immune to that. Still affordable though, and still good quality old school hi-fi for those that want it. And still British made too.

Exposure - a good brand well respected but a bit behind the times possibly, their new TT is a rebadged Rega, the new CD player could be interesting though.

I would like to see their 2500 range widened a bit, just the single amp is a bit disappointing.

Competitively priced products IMHO.

 

[davidf]

Exposure - a good brand well respected but a bit behind the times possibly, their new TT is a rebadged Rega, the new CD player could be interesting though.

I would like to see their 2500 range widened a bit, just the single amp is a bit disappointing.

Competitively priced products IMHO.

Like most manufacturers who excel at certain things and not others, Exposure aren't a turntable manufacturer, and have gone with a Rega as it's a safe bet - they just wanted a turntable in order to be able to provide a full Exposure system. They're not hiding anything. Plenty of manufacturers have a Clearaudio built TT in their range which they've had zero input into other than looks. Developing their own would've been ridiculously expensive, and not worth it just to provide a budget (but suitable) model.

 

[Al ears]

Exposure - a good brand well respected but a bit behind the times possibly, their new TT is a rebadged Rega, the new CD player could be interesting though.

I would like to see their 2500 range widened a bit, just the single amp is a bit disappointing.

Competitively priced products IMHO.

At over £2k the new CD player is a non-starter for me. For that price I would want to see SACD playback ability as well, unfortunately this appears to be an afterthought for most manufacturers.

 

[Oxfordian]

Like most manufacturers who excel at certain things and not others, Exposure aren't a turntable manufacturer, and have gone with a Rega as it's a safe bet - they just wanted a turntable in order to be able to provide a full Exposure system. They're not hiding anything. Plenty of manufacturers have a Clearaudio built TT in their range which they've had zero input into other than looks. Developing their own would've been ridiculously expensive, and not worth it just to provide a budget (but suitable) model.

Very true, but if Exposure wanted to provide a full system why not have the TT in their line up years ago, it seems a bit of belatedly jumping on the bandwagon for me, and it's hardly a budget option at £1300, the Rega equivalent would be cheaper.

Other than their website I have nothing on their new CD player, others here think its a bit pricey and could lack a few features, but @plastic penguin is very impressed with his Exposure CD spinner, so maybe its a winner albeit at a high price.

 

[twinkletoes]

Whats with the massive Richard over hifi Rose. All you paying for is the elaborate designs and frankly completely useless screens and or the completely useless mechanics of there steam punk inspired units.

All products of this type all I see is planned obsolescence written all over them, they are the very essence of a landfill product. Or in the case of the steam punk inspired editions parts that you can't get hold of in 5 years making them irreparable and ultimately unusable.

To be honest I really don't see the innovation with these products its nothing that I can't do already (and clearer i might add and far far cheaper) with an Apple TV plugged into a TV screen and AVR,
or the infinitely more usable Mac mini plugged into any dac used headless from any iPad and or iPhone.

I'll stick with my boring dated but long lived products. well perhaps not my Wiim pro but that was only a ton.

Just my very unpopular opinion.

 

[Oxfordian]

At over £2k the new CD player is a non-starter for me. For that price I would want to see SACD playback ability as well, unfortunately this appears to be an afterthought for most manufacturers.

Hell, its £2500, wow that's pricey, it needs to sound a bit special at that price.

 

[Oxfordian]

Whats with the massive Richard over hifi Rose. All you paying for is the elaborate designs and frankly completely useless screens and or the completely useless mechanics of there steam punk inspired units.

All products of this type all I see is planned obsolescence written all over them, they are the very essence of a landfill product. Or in the case of the steam punk inspired editions parts that you can't get hold of in 5 years making them irreparable and ultimately unusable.

To be honest I really don't see the innovation with these products its nothing that I can't do already (and clearer i might add and far far cheaper) with an Apple TV plugged into a TV screen and AVR,
or the infinitely more usable Mac mini plugged into any dac used headless from any iPad and or iPhone.

I'll stick with my boring dated but long lived products. well perhaps not my Wiim pro but that was only a ton.

Just my very unpopular opinion.

You have a A21, that's not unpopular in my eyes ( or rather my ears).

Nice setup of good gear IMHO.

 

[plastic penguin]

A new product, from a new company like HIFI Rose hasn't had many iterations to hone and refine the product. I think the HIFI Rose RS520 is an incredible achievement for such an early attempt. Just imagine how their products will improve when Class D and streaming really becomes established. I bet Harbeth made many mistakes before they realised a workable and quality product. That's where R&D plays an important role. There is no chance Harbeth made a perfect speaker on day one. It takes time and it's amazing to me the RS520 is nearly a perfect product that's come from nowhere. I'd never heard of this company until last year. New is better, if it's better.

Early Harbeth appealed to those who owned them. You're in love with Hi-fi Rose, others might think differently.

Contrary to your views, I've yet to hear a "perfect" component... at any price.

 

[plastic penguin]

Very true, but if Exposure wanted to provide a full system why not have the TT in their line up years ago, it seems a bit of belatedly jumping on the bandwagon for me, and it's hardly a budget option at £1300, the Rega equivalent would be cheaper.

Other than their website I have nothing on their new CD player, others here think its a bit pricey and could lack a few features, but @plastic penguin is very impressed with his Exposure CD spinner, so maybe its a winner albeit at a high price.

For the money I paid for mine, very impressed. Previously I owned £1100 Electrocompaniet CDP and the Exposure at half the normal retail price is more musical.

 

[Oxfordian]

I've yet to hear a "perfect" component... at any price.

Very true, our lives are full of compromises, a set up that puts a big grin on our faces is probably as close to perfection as any of us will get.

 

[manicm]

Whats with the massive Richard over hifi Rose. All you paying for is the elaborate designs and frankly completely useless screens and or the completely useless mechanics of there steam punk inspired units.

All products of this type all I see is planned obsolescence written all over them, they are the very essence of a landfill product. Or in the case of the steam punk inspired editions parts that you can't get hold of in 5 years making them irreparable and ultimately unusable.

To be honest I really don't see the innovation with these products its nothing that I can't do already (and clearer i might add and far far cheaper) with an Apple TV plugged into a TV screen and AVR,
or the infinitely more usable Mac mini plugged into any dac used headless from any iPad and or iPhone.

I'll stick with my boring dated but long lived products. well perhaps not my Wiim pro but that was only a ton.

Just my very unpopular opinion.

Your opinion will be unpopular because it's biased, you talk about planned obsolete. ANY WiFi enabled component will have planned obsolescence, so that includes Naim etc

So your argument remains a bit flimsy. If you want upgradability then buy a Linn, but don't complain about the price. But Linn know those who can afford their components can afford upgrades too.

 

[twinkletoes]

You have a A21, that's not unpopular in my eyes ( or rather my ears).

Nice setup of good gear IMHO.

Not unpopular, lets say unfashionable

 

[Oxfordian]

Not unpopular, lets say unfashionable

It makes good music so who cares, its not about the latest trend, gismo or gadget, sometimes it is simply about getting a great sound that you enjoy.