I am surprised ...

[drummerman]

... at the apparent lack of interest in Headphones on this forum (based on the limited posting in the H/P section)

A decent set can give S/Q even relatively expensive Hifi may struggle to emulate.

Its a cheap way of going active unless you use a multi-driver IE.

A true single point source.

It's eminently transportable given a good quality mobile source.

Downsides are few; Pick the right pair and the 'in head' sound picture sometimes quoted is relatively minor and sound stage can be surprisingly 'real' within the confines of the illusion that is stereo.

You can't 'feel' the sound (or trouser flapping bass) but how many of us can play our systems at those levels anyway?

Imho, pound for pound, a good set of H/phones is probably the shrewdest hifi purchase possible.

 

[Vladimir]

I don't think it's an issue just with this forum. Cans don't get much actions on general audio forums because Head-Fi has sucked in all the talent. Which is why I think having Dale circulate here is such a premium.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I use headphones a lot whilst travelling (I do a lot of long-haul for work). The main thing with listening on an aircraft is noise reduction. It turns several hours of boredom into a self-indulgent musicfest. - Something I really look forward to.

However, at home, headphones are the last thing I want to be held prisoner by.

 

[drummerman]

I use headphones a lot whilst travelling (I do a lot of long-haul for work). The main thing with listening on an aircraft is noise reduction. It turns several hours of boredom into a self-indulgent musicfest. - Something I really look forward to.

However, at home, headphones are the last thing I want to be held prisoner by.

Looking at your systems, I can understand that.

Most of us have far humbler replay systems and it is there that a good Headphone can easily come up trumps or give a taste of the high-end at least.

 

[paulkebab]

a full review of the Oppo PM1's I bought but because they aren't on WHF's 'special list' I couldn't. They still amaze me even now, and many of my friends have a dig at me for paying so much which is understandable.. until they listen to them and the pee-taking grin falls into slack-jaw. Amazing how quickly someones face can change! It would be unfair to say I prefer cans over speakers as I love them both but the detail and unravelling the Oppo's give is far beyond any speakers I've heard even with my arguably mediocre setup ( yes the amp is in the pipeline! ). Enjoy them both but in different ways, and definitely have fun!

 

[MajorFubar]

Easily 50% of my listening is by headphones, if not more. You're right, unless you're one of those people who can retreat to a purpose-built acoustically-treated music room and listen to a hifi that costs upwards of the price of a family car, a good set of heaphones are the best hifi many of us will ever own.

They do have one massive disadvantage though: if one of your ears is noticeably worse compared to the other, you may always find headphones disappointing. I go through periods where I suffer terribly from ETD and ear infections in my left ear, usually after bad colds, and until my hearing has sufficiently recovered headphones are pointless. Of course it affects how I hear speakers as well, but not nearly to the same degree.

 

[lindsayt]

Headphones make my ears ache after a while.

I don't like the invasive in-head soundstaging.

There's no physical impact from them. With good speakers you'll get some physical impact and room pressurisation at modest volumes.

They are anti-social in that you can't share the listening with everyone else in the room.

And then there's the frequency anomalies:

£700 to £1000 is enough to buy you amp and speaker combinations that will sound at least as good as other ones costing as much as a car.

 

[drummerman]

Headphones make my ears ache after a while.

I don't like the invasive in-head soundstaging.

There's no physical impact from them. With good speakers you'll get some physical impact and room pressurisation at modest volumes.

They are anti-social in that you can't share the listening with everyone else in the room.

And then there's the frequency anomalies:

£700 to £1000 is enough to buy you amp and speaker combinations that will sound at least as good as other ones costing as much as a car.

You'll find that Hp's have to measure differently from speakers, otherwise they are not perceived to sound 'correct'. What the perfect response is is open to debate to some degree. The Harman Target Response is one accepted version but there are others.

Just as with loudspeakers, many of us have different ideas on what sounds good.

As to your other quote about car priced systems compared to one that costs under £1k ... a little generalized imho. Sure, a well put together £1k system can probably sound better than a £10k one that is badly mismatched but if both are sympathetically put together ... .

To get back to headphones though, if you can get over the 'i have something stuck to my head' thing, I personally think it is unlikely you could build a amplifier/speaker system for £1k that can do what a good Headphone at a third or even less can potentially do, source notwithstanding.

Totally agree though that listening to speakers is different and nice too.

 

[lindsayt]

£700 to £1000 is enough to buy you an amp and speaker combination that will sound at least as good as well matched combinations costing over £10,000 - eg Linn Akubariks, ATC SCM 100's, Naim NAP500 plus Ovator S-800.

 

[Andrewjvt]

£700 to £1000 is enough to buy you an amp and speaker combination that will sound at least as good as well matched combinations costing over £10,000 - eg Linn Akubariks, ATC SCM 100's, Naim NAP500 plus Ovator S-800.

Please name this £700 atc killer

 

[ID.]

I use my headphones as much as my speakers but I still prefer speakers when possible, and my headphone rig isn't too shabby.

I think one of the issues is that it can be hard to audition cans.

here cans seem to be regarded as something to add on to a system as an afterthought for rare occasions where one doesn't want to disturb others.

Theres also a massive range of headphones so even someone who has a bit of an interest won't have actually heard that many, especially when coupled with the fact that they are hard to audition.

i agree that we are lucky that Dale posts here too.

When I want discussion on cans this isn't really the place for me.

 

[lindsayt]

Please name this £700 atc killer

Not a killer, as speakers are a highly personal choice. Just something that sounds at least as good overall as ATC 100's.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/million-yen-40-25-70-kg-club

There are also some speakers which cost about half a million yen when new and weigh over 70kgs that sound at least as good as ATC 100's.

 

[ID.]

Please name this £700 atc killer

Not a killer, as speakers are a highly personal choice. Just something that sounds at least as good overall as ATC 100's.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/million-yen-40-25-70-kg-club

There are also some speakers which cost about half a million yen when new and weigh over 70kgs that sound at least as good as ATC 100's.

yeah, but it won't exactly fit on my desk (or even in my office) or by my bedside.

 

[Vladimir]

Andrew thought you'd suggest something that is comparable in age and price as new. By comparing second hand with originally higher MSRP to a new cheaper unit today, you introduce a handicap and it isn't a fair comparison.

Same can be said about cheap system matched well vs expensive system matched badly. You seem to introduce handicaps and exclusions from general rules. Reality doesn't work that way. The same guy that matched a cheap system well can do a good job matching an expensive one. Comparing a hobby smart poor audiophile (class underdog) vs hobby idiot rich banker (class nemesis) is maybe fun comparison to make but it serves us no real purpose in a discussion. I believe in debate terms that is called a straw man argument?

 

[philpot1001]

I used to have a nice pair of Senhiesers back in the 90's, but they got stolen decades ago.

Im thinking about getting a headphone amp / DAC and a nice set of HP long term, but have many other purchases which take priority. To me i always prefer the sound of speakers, its just more immersive to me, and getting my main set up right is my priority.

 

[lindsayt]

ID, yes and that is where the positives of headphones come in.

If the only space you have for speakers is on your desk, or in a small office or beside your bed in a small bedroom and you want reasonable overall sound quality - then that's where headphones come in.

If on the other hand you have the room and the will for proper sized speakers then headphones don't come into the equation as much.

And Vladimir, I'm not erecting a straw man argument. Merely living in the real world where you can buy amp and speaker combinations for £700 to £1000 that do sound at least as good as the most cleverly put together, well matched £10,000 upwards systems. And therefore it's a complete myth that you have to spend over £1,000 in order to get headphone beating sound quality.

IE we can take away the benefit that headphones give you sound quality that can't be beaten till you spend thousands of pounds because it simply isn't true. It's not my fault if someone doesn't know what's possible for under £1000.

However the fact does remain that headphones are small whilst genuinely realistic sounding speakers aren't.

 

[Vladimir]

And Vladimir, I'm not erecting a straw man argument. Merely living in the real world where you can buy amp and speaker combinations for £700 to £1000 that do sound at least as good as the most cleverly put together, well matched £10,000 upwards systems. And therefore it's a complete myth that you have to spend over £1,000 in order to get headphone beating sound quality.

I reckon it depends how much importance one gives to the 'differences'. Some will say the extra zero in the price does not yield x10 better sound, or even x2. Others will lose their minds over differences by swapping wires and fuses.

Again I'm talking apples to apples here. If we start comparing second hand to new (especially decades appart), then we introduce a myriad of risks that one doesn't face in a hi-fi shop when buying new. If you go for the million yen club you are gambling with your money, hoping the equipment you get is not damaged or not functioning properly in some way or even an outright scam. Even when you are super cautious and your purchase works perfectly when you bring it home, it may give up few days, weeks, months later, and there is no warranty here, no help desk and hotline to call. Money down the drain. Those are the risks and when you compare s/h to new, you need to calculate those in the price and things suddenly become not so simple.

 

[Snooker]

I agree with "lindsayt", that in the example given that yes a carefully paired £700 setup for headphones and amp etc, would be just as good as a setup costing £10,000 and upwards certainly without any real noticable difference and only minimal at best, and in my opinion this also applies to amplifier systems and speakers

I have been to hi-fi exibitions and think that a good matched system costing around £2000 including speakers, is as good as anything dearer, and that expensive stuff is just for the rich peoples market

In other words you could buy an outstanding sounding system for £2000 which is as good as anything more expensive, certainly without any real noticable difference and only minimal at best

There really is so much inaccurate hype regarding hi-fi and expensive systems etc

 

[drummerman]

I have been to hi-fi exibitions and think that a good matched system costing around £2000 including speakers, is as good as anything dearer, and that expensive stuff is just for the rich peoples market

In other words you could buy an outstanding sounding system for £2000 which is as good as anything more expensive, certainly without any good noticable difference and only minimal at best

I find that a very odd statement but if that is what you believe, good for you.

 

[Snooker]

To be more accurate somewhere around £1500 to £2000, if it applies to heaphones and amps then it also applies to amps and speakers surely *smile*

 

[drummerman]

To be more accurate somewhere around £1500 to £2000, if it applies to heaphones and amps then it also applies to amps and speakers surely *smile*

Imho ... no

 

[Vladimir]

To be more accurate somewhere around £1500 to £2000, if it applies to heaphones and amps then it also applies to amps and speakers surely *smile*

Imho ... no

But it's carefully paired.

 

[drummerman]

To be more accurate somewhere around £1500 to £2000, if it applies to heaphones and amps then it also applies to amps and speakers surely *smile*

Imho ... no

But it's carefully paired.

... yes and its better than anything.

 

[lindsayt]

Vladmir, assuming sensible precautions:

Buying from people with some credibility / reputation / known history

Cash on collection after a full demo

what proportion of million yen or half million yen 2nd hand equipment do you think would develop unexpected faults in the next ten years of ownership where the total repair cost for all the faults would be over £1000? Bearing in mind we're looking at top of the range stuff and not stuff that was built down to a budget?

0%? 1%? 5%? 10%? 20%? 50%? 66%? 75%? 99%? 100%?

 

[ID.]

To be more accurate somewhere around £1500 to £2000, if it applies to heaphones and amps then it also applies to amps and speakers surely *smile*

then you misunderstand the prices headphones, etc. sell for.

The very top of the range headphone kit is much cheaper, so that price on headphones you are playing pretty high up in the market, unlike 2000 pounds in new kit.