The truth is that 50 watts is low but the amp is very high quality and if your going to use it in a small to medium room then there will be no problem. If you want high volume or a large room then get more power.
I ve read some interesting things here,
Of course I believe my dealer who visited my home and said to me 50 watt is fine for your domestic environment.
At 11-12 o'clock music is going to sound a little harsh, but it could be my hard acoustic environment too. So I need to test this, I've already adjust the room with cotton curtains, a rug and a big bookcase.
This is a big improvement in sound and I had no problems at 11 o'clock anymore. At 12 o'clock (that is really really loud) again I noticed the harshness in vocals.
Next week some dealers will bring me the more powerful Exposure 3010S2 amp and the Moon i3.3 then I can say if the problem is my acoustic environment or the amp.
Another thing I did notice was the type of music I was playing. With rock and pop music I noticed the harshness very soon but with classical music and jazz the sound is much cleaner and controlled. So that is another point I have to test with other amps, because maybe me problem is related to recordings.
By the way, I am happy I get some more nuanced replies, because on another forum I get 1 answer : You need at least 200w and you should buy AVI ADM. Well I have owned the ADM and I do not like the sound of it in my room, I put them in my small study room were I sit at 1 mtr from the speaker and that's fine.
rob
Of course I believe my dealer who visited my home and said to me 50 watt is fine for your domestic environment.
At 11-12 o'clock music is going to sound a little harsh, but it could be my hard acoustic environment too. So I need to test this, I've already adjust the room with cotton curtains, a rug and a big bookcase.
This is a big improvement in sound and I had no problems at 11 o'clock anymore. At 12 o'clock (that is really really loud) again I noticed the harshness in vocals.
Next week some dealers will bring me the more powerful Exposure 3010S2 amp and the Moon i3.3 then I can say if the problem is my acoustic environment or the amp.
Another thing I did notice was the type of music I was playing. With rock and pop music I noticed the harshness very soon but with classical music and jazz the sound is much cleaner and controlled. So that is another point I have to test with other amps, because maybe me problem is related to recordings.
By the way, I am happy I get some more nuanced replies, because on another forum I get 1 answer : You need at least 200w and you should buy AVI ADM. Well I have owned the ADM and I do not like the sound of it in my room, I put them in my small study room were I sit at 1 mtr from the speaker and that's fine.
rob
poldo said:
i've read that thread, that is NOT the advice you were given. the advice was the same as here, and the same as what you are doing - try more amp power. if you're not bothered by how they look, go to a pro audio shop and demo some active speakers, the adms are awesome but i would need the sub to go with them. my opals, for instance, have no need of a sub. :rockout:
tim92gts
Well-known member
Of course I believe my dealer who visited my home and said to me 50 watt is fine for your domestic environment.
Hi Poldo,
Sounds like he was wrong and that's why you're getting so much distortion.
As a confirmed cynic i never believe a salesman.
Do you still believe him now he's saying you need twice as much power?
Those speakers need adequate power to get the best performance.
i have no idea which brands you have access to but the first quality characteristic
of an amplifier is it's power output; if you don't have that in place to start with you're stuffed from day 1.
TBH you'd probably get better performance from a decent 500W Crown amp.
Don't be mislead by the dial position, if you have a reasonable voltage at the input the 12 o'clock on your
volume could still be over the clipping point for the amp.
HTH
Tim
Hi Poldo,
Sounds like he was wrong and that's why you're getting so much distortion.
As a confirmed cynic i never believe a salesman.
Do you still believe him now he's saying you need twice as much power?
Those speakers need adequate power to get the best performance.
i have no idea which brands you have access to but the first quality characteristic
of an amplifier is it's power output; if you don't have that in place to start with you're stuffed from day 1.
TBH you'd probably get better performance from a decent 500W Crown amp.
Don't be mislead by the dial position, if you have a reasonable voltage at the input the 12 o'clock on your
volume could still be over the clipping point for the amp.
HTH
Tim
tim92gts
Well-known member
More than enough for a small outdoor rock festival with the nearest audience about 50 feet away, according to that guide you linked to.
Worked out about right, we're at 7m aiming for 85dB with 92 sensitivity and 25dB headroom.
Get the Telarc 1812 on and you'll appreciate that headroom.
Shove on the Metallica wall of sound and it's all totally redundant.
Worked out about right, we're at 7m aiming for 85dB with 92 sensitivity and 25dB headroom.
Get the Telarc 1812 on and you'll appreciate that headroom.
Shove on the Metallica wall of sound and it's all totally redundant.
Poldo, sounds like you've been tripping round the forums but I imagine your answers will be more or less the same - if you're hearing distortion from your speakers, I'm not surprised. Your amp will work within a small 'window' of operation but push it beyond its limits and you'll find - as you are - its limitations.
Sure, you can stick a 50 watter onto a pair of speakers like yours and they'll probably sound good up to a point, but to do the speaker justice, you need to hand them an amp that's got enough power on tap not just to run 'em but get a grip on the dynamic range in the music. Yes, you could stick a Crown amp or two on but that's if you can get away with some pro-audio touring kit sitting on your sideboard. You might, but your other half might have a different view on that...alternatively, check out Harman Kardon's HK990. 150wpc, capability to go up to 300 (measured higher in one review I think) and it'll cope with your speakers needs easily.
If your budget is a tad lower, as the HK goes for about £800-£1100 in the UK depending on where you buy, then their HK3490 would be a good alternative. No dual mono power provision and lower current (45 against 200), but 120wpc on tap and owners seem to be pleased with it for the money. See also some of the Onkyo range - their TX8050 network receiver or their AV amps. See also Yamaha's latest range. Not so fussed about their sub-£500 efforts, but their AS-700 amp or their new 671 receiver are worth investigating. Big advantage with AV amps is the means to be able to bi-amp if your speakers have the means to take that.
Sure, you can stick a 50 watter onto a pair of speakers like yours and they'll probably sound good up to a point, but to do the speaker justice, you need to hand them an amp that's got enough power on tap not just to run 'em but get a grip on the dynamic range in the music. Yes, you could stick a Crown amp or two on but that's if you can get away with some pro-audio touring kit sitting on your sideboard. You might, but your other half might have a different view on that...alternatively, check out Harman Kardon's HK990. 150wpc, capability to go up to 300 (measured higher in one review I think) and it'll cope with your speakers needs easily.
If your budget is a tad lower, as the HK goes for about £800-£1100 in the UK depending on where you buy, then their HK3490 would be a good alternative. No dual mono power provision and lower current (45 against 200), but 120wpc on tap and owners seem to be pleased with it for the money. See also some of the Onkyo range - their TX8050 network receiver or their AV amps. See also Yamaha's latest range. Not so fussed about their sub-£500 efforts, but their AS-700 amp or their new 671 receiver are worth investigating. Big advantage with AV amps is the means to be able to bi-amp if your speakers have the means to take that.
nopiano said:
For poorly designed amps this is undoubtably true. Which is to say: This is usually true.
This is one reason that tube amps work - the effortless sound they create of a much bigger amp than they are. My Single ended amp (SEP) must peak out at about 15 WPC but hear the effortless sound and you'd swear it was 200 WPC.
One thing tube amps have in common is high voltage. This means for the VAS (voltage amplifier section) you are using a small part of the tubes voltage range. My first stage is about 300V and that takes the 1V or so and amplifies it. The driver tubes use the classic SRPP configuration at 400V, which has the ability to swing that voltage with ease, but only needs about 50V to completely drive the output tubes. So perhaps it sounds effortless because it isn't really making any effort?
Strangely enough you don't really need tubes to do this - transistors and MOSFETs exist that quite easily cope with the voltage and power - but hardly anyone outside of DIY designs transistor amps using tube methods, but the ones that do sound very good. There is also a very interesting magnetic power amp that has 9 components in total IIRC, that uses a transformer for the VAS and a couple of MOSFET followers for the output - via a transformer (like some McIntosh amps).
So yes, the tired old transistor designs will sound more dynamic as they get bigger, but the magic First Watt will get worse so you have to compromise. My old 100 WPC Class A used to do both well, but sucked up nearly 500W while it did it - but my small tube amp is around 150W consumption and does dynamics and subtlety just as well
For classical, piano etc. it's difficult to match the scale of sound of a good tube amp, with the benefits of a sweet treble, amazing bass and the quiet bits sounding as good as the loud bits.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
It takes as many as it takes
There are amplifiers out there that claim 100wpc, but in practice, are lower powered than some that only claim 50wpc. Less than 100wpc might not seem much to some, but I've tested out the ProAc K6's and KEF Reference 207/2's with the Onkyo P3000R/M5000R pre/power - which is rated at 80wpc - on the third floor of the store, which is about 5x7 metres, plus extending into the open roof. This is a large space to fill, and the Onkyo didn't blink once. It's not how many watts per channel the amplifier is rated at, it's the current it can provide, the headroom it can deal with, and the grip it has over the speaker in question that is important.
It's all down to choosing the right amp for the job, although, as I've said many times, the better you drive a quality pair of speakers, the better they'll sound.
There are amplifiers out there that claim 100wpc, but in practice, are lower powered than some that only claim 50wpc. Less than 100wpc might not seem much to some, but I've tested out the ProAc K6's and KEF Reference 207/2's with the Onkyo P3000R/M5000R pre/power - which is rated at 80wpc - on the third floor of the store, which is about 5x7 metres, plus extending into the open roof. This is a large space to fill, and the Onkyo didn't blink once. It's not how many watts per channel the amplifier is rated at, it's the current it can provide, the headroom it can deal with, and the grip it has over the speaker in question that is important.
It's all down to choosing the right amp for the job, although, as I've said many times, the better you drive a quality pair of speakers, the better they'll sound.
I am not saying it is clipping, I never listen at 12 o'clock because that so loud I damage my ears.
Usually I listen at 8-9-10 max. No problems at all with my amp, I tried 11-12 o'clock but could not listen for 10 sec. because it was too loud and the sound becomes nasty.
Usually I listen at 8-9-10 max. No problems at all with my amp, I tried 11-12 o'clock but could not listen for 10 sec. because it was too loud and the sound becomes nasty.
Yep, your amp reached its limitations. Probably before in fact. Either keep it and listen at more sensible levels within its capabilities, or get something better.
poldo said:
The position of your volume control has only relevance for your system in your room listening to a particular track. I.e. it means nothing - sorry. Otherwise the opening pipes in Pink Floyd's the wall would be as loud as the last Black Eyed Peas Album - which it clearly isn't!
When you have there is in fact a 'gain' control, rather than a volume control. Try pressing 'Pause' on the CD player and turn it all the way up. Not very loud is it?!
BTW most gain controls only go up to 10, but on my amp it goes up to 11
So how do you know the amp is clipping? Maybe it is just the compression of the record?
Is there a technical way to measure clipping in your own system?
thanks
rob
Is there a technical way to measure clipping in your own system?
thanks
rob
poldo said:
The sound will get you, but the technical way is to connect an oscilloscope up to the speaker terminals.
Any modern pop CD will be clipped to hell anyway, just turn down the (amp) level to separate that clipping from any amplifier clipping. You tend to hear the clip recovery and harmonics generated - more than the cilp itself. One of the Black Eyed Peas tracks has over 200 samples in a single clip, so do be careful about what you attribute the clipping to.
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