Home Cinema advice and choice of KEF Reference vs KEF R series
- Thread starter wackyraces
- Start date
Hi there, and welcome to the forum.
Try again, and we should be able to give some insight.
Your choice will depend on the quality / sonic balance of the amp you're using and personal taste.
Try again, and we should be able to give some insight.
Your choice will depend on the quality / sonic balance of the amp you're using and personal taste.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
As Cno states - this decision may hang on what you're willing to spend on amplification. The R series is a little demanding when it comes to amplifier quality, but they work well with a wide range of manufacturer's amplifiers. Due to their tighter, more accurate nature, the Reference range is a little more choosy and needs quite careful partnering.
The R series is warmer, smoother, and more laid back than the Reference range. They're very clean too, and being based on the Blades they have much to like about them. You'll be looking at roughly a £2k receiver for the R series, something like the Yamaha RXA3030 or Anthem MRX710 would be ideal. Both are very flexible with regards to setup, and ideal for custom installs, such are their features. The Yamaha will do a little more with regards to niceties - an excellent iPad app for control, AirPlay, music streaming, Napster, and Spotify. The Anthem is a little more upfront sounding than the Yamaha, and forgoes the aforementioned niceties, but it does have one of the better room EQ systems out there at the moment, and does have the flexibility of having two set up configurations which can be used to have a different speaker set up for hi-fi and AV (all speakers set to small for 5.1/7.1, and speakers set to large for 2.0, for example), and either of those configurations can be assigned to specific inputs, so will be chosen automatically when you select the input. No control app just yet, but I believe one is being worked on.
The Reference range, despite not yet benefitting from the Blade advancements, is still a more accurate and revealing sounding range than the R series, which usually means opinions are divided further. More room friendly with their front firing ports (upwards with the 201/2), this range loses the warmth of the R series, bringing detail more to the fore, producing dynamics very few other speakers can touch. Of course, suitable amplification is needed. The Reference range is ruthlessly revealing, and they won't sugar coat an inferior signal. I would highly recommend a processor like the Yamaha CXA5000 or Marantz AV8801, and then power amplification can be chosen for the job. Yamaha's own MXA5000 (an eleven channel amp that can be used to bi-amp a 5.1 speaker package) or the Primare A30.7 are the sort of amps I'd be looking at. The pre/power combo is going to be coming in at around the £5k mark, although using something like the Audiolab 8200AP will bring that figure down by over £1k.
As always, it is a case of getting an audition of both packages, and seeing which one you prefer the sound of, as both are technically excellent, but have their own character. Their ability to place effects with pinpoint accuracy and produce the most seamless of soundfields is all down to their UniQ driver array.
The R series is warmer, smoother, and more laid back than the Reference range. They're very clean too, and being based on the Blades they have much to like about them. You'll be looking at roughly a £2k receiver for the R series, something like the Yamaha RXA3030 or Anthem MRX710 would be ideal. Both are very flexible with regards to setup, and ideal for custom installs, such are their features. The Yamaha will do a little more with regards to niceties - an excellent iPad app for control, AirPlay, music streaming, Napster, and Spotify. The Anthem is a little more upfront sounding than the Yamaha, and forgoes the aforementioned niceties, but it does have one of the better room EQ systems out there at the moment, and does have the flexibility of having two set up configurations which can be used to have a different speaker set up for hi-fi and AV (all speakers set to small for 5.1/7.1, and speakers set to large for 2.0, for example), and either of those configurations can be assigned to specific inputs, so will be chosen automatically when you select the input. No control app just yet, but I believe one is being worked on.
The Reference range, despite not yet benefitting from the Blade advancements, is still a more accurate and revealing sounding range than the R series, which usually means opinions are divided further. More room friendly with their front firing ports (upwards with the 201/2), this range loses the warmth of the R series, bringing detail more to the fore, producing dynamics very few other speakers can touch. Of course, suitable amplification is needed. The Reference range is ruthlessly revealing, and they won't sugar coat an inferior signal. I would highly recommend a processor like the Yamaha CXA5000 or Marantz AV8801, and then power amplification can be chosen for the job. Yamaha's own MXA5000 (an eleven channel amp that can be used to bi-amp a 5.1 speaker package) or the Primare A30.7 are the sort of amps I'd be looking at. The pre/power combo is going to be coming in at around the £5k mark, although using something like the Audiolab 8200AP will bring that figure down by over £1k.
As always, it is a case of getting an audition of both packages, and seeing which one you prefer the sound of, as both are technically excellent, but have their own character. Their ability to place effects with pinpoint accuracy and produce the most seamless of soundfields is all down to their UniQ driver array.
Kef had the R series setup off a Pioneer LX85 or 86 Receiver at the Bristol Show last year - was one of the better demo's of the day so I would consider a Pioneer Receiver as well
To get the best out of Signaturtes I would assume you will nneed much more than an Av Receiver - talking pre and power such as what David suggested from Yamaha or better I would have thought
To get the best out of Signaturtes I would assume you will nneed much more than an Av Receiver - talking pre and power such as what David suggested from Yamaha or better I would have thought
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
CnoEvil said:
Hi CnE
Just to expand on the 'quality' of amplification (as you've previously mentioned) the importance of driving the speakers properly.
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
hi thanks for the feedback. for clarity here i am wanting to build a custom home cinema room using a home cinema design specialist. they recommend a whole load of products i have never heard of but assure me they are built for home theatre rooms. on the other hand. i am speaking to audiot the hifi shop in manchester who say i am better using hi-fi separates. obviously both want me to buy the equipment from them. my thoughts are that it is better to use robust "separates" manufactures of well known hi fi equipment rather than a home cinema manufactures equipment if i am to obtain the best sound. i am only interested in watching movies. the equipment i am thinking if buying is listed below. as i am not any kind of expert i would appreciate honest feedback as to whether this system of separates has the wow factor or whether i have more money than sense:
sony vpl-vw500es projector
yamaha cx-a5000 pre amp and mx-a5000 power amp
oppo blu ray bdp-105eu multi region with roku streaming
kef reference 205/2 floorstanding
kef reference 204/2c centre speaker
kef reference 206/2ds dipole pair
REL subwoofer 528se
the room is 17ft by 17ft
sony vpl-vw500es projector
yamaha cx-a5000 pre amp and mx-a5000 power amp
oppo blu ray bdp-105eu multi region with roku streaming
kef reference 205/2 floorstanding
kef reference 204/2c centre speaker
kef reference 206/2ds dipole pair
REL subwoofer 528se
the room is 17ft by 17ft
In order to try and give info that's as relevant as possible, could you give details of the following:
- Your total budget.
- Will you be using the system for 2 channel, and if so, what would your percentage split be, between AV and 2 channel.
- What sort of sound do you like ie. Smooth but detailed, or more forward and exciting.
- Will you be auditioning the choices you have - vital given the money you will be spending.
I can give feedback on the Reference Range, as I have 205/2s; 204/2c; 206 DS (previous Ref Dipoles)...as seen here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/and-finally
IMO. You should try and get a listen to the Refs on the end of the new Arcam Range ie. AV950 + P777 or the AVR750. The Refs sound superb with these "Class A" sounding amps.
Other amp brands that I like would be from Classe, Primare, Bryston and Anthem.
Now, the R Series are well worth looking at, especially if you don't want to shell out a fortune on amplification. They are so good, that if they had been available at the time I was buying, I'm not sure I could have justified the huge premium for the Refs.....though the Refs are certainly a step up in clarity and bass quality / definition. This is one for your ears to decide.
There are other speaker brands to consider eg. PMC (works well with Arcam) and Monitor Audio Platinum range.
Subs I like would be from Velodyne, Paradigm and JL Audio.
Remember, the most important speakers for AV are the centre and the Sub, so, for example, if 2 channel wasn't important, you could go for the 203/2s.
If I can help any more, just shout.
- Your total budget.
- Will you be using the system for 2 channel, and if so, what would your percentage split be, between AV and 2 channel.
- What sort of sound do you like ie. Smooth but detailed, or more forward and exciting.
- Will you be auditioning the choices you have - vital given the money you will be spending.
I can give feedback on the Reference Range, as I have 205/2s; 204/2c; 206 DS (previous Ref Dipoles)...as seen here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/and-finally
IMO. You should try and get a listen to the Refs on the end of the new Arcam Range ie. AV950 + P777 or the AVR750. The Refs sound superb with these "Class A" sounding amps.
Other amp brands that I like would be from Classe, Primare, Bryston and Anthem.
Now, the R Series are well worth looking at, especially if you don't want to shell out a fortune on amplification. They are so good, that if they had been available at the time I was buying, I'm not sure I could have justified the huge premium for the Refs.....though the Refs are certainly a step up in clarity and bass quality / definition. This is one for your ears to decide.
There are other speaker brands to consider eg. PMC (works well with Arcam) and Monitor Audio Platinum range.
Subs I like would be from Velodyne, Paradigm and JL Audio.
Remember, the most important speakers for AV are the centre and the Sub, so, for example, if 2 channel wasn't important, you could go for the 203/2s.
If I can help any more, just shout.
in answer to your questions:
- total budget - 25-30k (equipment only)
- Will you be using the system for 2 channel, and if so, what would your percentage split be, between AV and 2 channel - being a complete layman i haveno idea what that means. i will be using the system solely to watch movies not for music
- What sort of sound do you like ie. Smooth but detailed, or more forward and exciting - unsure but i would opt for forward and exciting - want to be able to feel the movie and hear gunshots or loud bangs all around the room and also want a very strong bass
- Will you be auditioning the choices you have - vital given the money you will be spending.- yes definitely. its too much money to be spending without listening and watching first
might try and demo the arcam amps you mentioned
i have tried the R series which sounded great but i need to make the comparison with Kef Reference.
now what about the home theatre brands such as Procella, M&K, Triad and Artcoustic? i have never heard of any of these but they are all very well known speaker brands in the Home Cinema markets. is it better to buy speakers dedicated to home theatre use or is it better to use high end stereo speakers? i have googled different forums but still havent found a satisfactory answer to this question, which are the better speakers for a dedicated home cinema room?
- total budget - 25-30k (equipment only)
- Will you be using the system for 2 channel, and if so, what would your percentage split be, between AV and 2 channel - being a complete layman i haveno idea what that means. i will be using the system solely to watch movies not for music
- What sort of sound do you like ie. Smooth but detailed, or more forward and exciting - unsure but i would opt for forward and exciting - want to be able to feel the movie and hear gunshots or loud bangs all around the room and also want a very strong bass
- Will you be auditioning the choices you have - vital given the money you will be spending.- yes definitely. its too much money to be spending without listening and watching first
might try and demo the arcam amps you mentioned
i have tried the R series which sounded great but i need to make the comparison with Kef Reference.
now what about the home theatre brands such as Procella, M&K, Triad and Artcoustic? i have never heard of any of these but they are all very well known speaker brands in the Home Cinema markets. is it better to buy speakers dedicated to home theatre use or is it better to use high end stereo speakers? i have googled different forums but still havent found a satisfactory answer to this question, which are the better speakers for a dedicated home cinema room?
If you are building a room that is dedicated to Home Cinema I would suggest you dont need the KEFs or any floor standing speaker. If you do wish to opt for the Reference I would knock back the 205's to 203's, not buy the gloss finish and invest in an additional subwoofer. My main advice given what you have said here is to increase your 5.1 to 9.2 or 11.2 depending on how your room is laid out.
The first four items on your list are superb but I do belive you could obtain a better room overall with a different approach. Did the other company let you know the products they are recommending, you may find they are well known on the forum rather than the high street.
The first four items on your list are superb but I do belive you could obtain a better room overall with a different approach. Did the other company let you know the products they are recommending, you may find they are well known on the forum rather than the high street.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Nothing is perfect. They all have their foibles and shortcomings. It is finding the one that suits you. Just because it is a dedicated AV system, there's nothing in the rule book to say you can't use hi-fi speakers, for example.wackyraces said:
I have to be honest, it's been a long time since I've heard a REL I like, particularly for home cinema. Thankfully, there's plenty of choice out there. Do you have more money than sense? There will be plenty with an opinion, but only you can answer that question with any relevancy - you know how often you watch films, and you know how much enjoyment you (and maybe others) get from them, so you will know if it is worth the investment. Many people will spend this sort of money on a car (sometimes twice as much), which loses 50% of its value as soon as you park your rear in the driver's seat.
Speaker choice seems fine for the room size.
wackyraces said:
I was typing so didnt see your last reply.
If you want that kind of bass then another subwoofer will really help with that - as will a higher performing model.
I doubt you will need the Procella speakers in your room as they really excel in large spaces where a lot of volume is required. It is not to say they wont perform in your room but if KEF Ref is a benchmark for sound you will see better results with the Triad brand than Procella. MK produce a range of very good cinema speakers and would be worth exploring - I have several clients running the S150's to great effect.
The fact you are not interested in music, in some ways makes things a little simpler.
I can only advise in my sphere of knowledge, which is around the brands I've mentioned.......I'm not familiar enough with the dedicated home theatre brands (like M&K).
If it was my money, and 2 channel wasn't an issue, I would go for the best Centre in the range (eg.204/2c), and a really decent Sub (Velodyne DD Range or something from JL Audio). I would also save a little money on the Front L&R (eg 203/2). Nb. Around 60-65% of the info comes out of the centre channel.
IMO You will be delighted with the new Arcam amps when matched with the Refs, but if you don't go this route, you should try to hear Bryston. In this system you are putting together, the amps will make or break the sound you get, especially with the Refs.
Please let us know how you get on
Cno
EDIT. There is good advice above, though it would be good to hear from Clinton333 who has Kef Refs (203/2 + 202/2c) with Arcam (AV888 / P777) and a decent sub (B&W DB1). http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/system-updated-2013
I can only advise in my sphere of knowledge, which is around the brands I've mentioned.......I'm not familiar enough with the dedicated home theatre brands (like M&K).
If it was my money, and 2 channel wasn't an issue, I would go for the best Centre in the range (eg.204/2c), and a really decent Sub (Velodyne DD Range or something from JL Audio). I would also save a little money on the Front L&R (eg 203/2). Nb. Around 60-65% of the info comes out of the centre channel.
IMO You will be delighted with the new Arcam amps when matched with the Refs, but if you don't go this route, you should try to hear Bryston. In this system you are putting together, the amps will make or break the sound you get, especially with the Refs.
Please let us know how you get on
Cno
EDIT. There is good advice above, though it would be good to hear from Clinton333 who has Kef Refs (203/2 + 202/2c) with Arcam (AV888 / P777) and a decent sub (B&W DB1). http://www.whathifi.com/forum/your-system/system-updated-2013
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
Hi wackyraces
Thinking out of the box - active sub woofer/s then why not also active main speakers. ATC's SCM50A SL (FL & FR), C3A SL (C) and SCM20A SL (RL & RR) monitors are also worth serious consideration. No mess with speaker cables, space saving, electronic crossover with their professional studio amplifiers optimised in bi/tri amplification configuration for each drive unit. ATC monitors have not been designed to favour any particular type of soundtrack. ATC monitors will instead distinguish themselves by reproducing movie and music soundtracks in a (amongst their other qualities) clean, precise and powerful manner.
Look at partnering the ATC monitors with Yamaha's CX-A5000 (they've done a fantastic job with this processor) and JL Audio's Fathom f112. For an even cleaner, smoother and more powerful bass over a larger area add a second Fathom f112.
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
Thinking out of the box - active sub woofer/s then why not also active main speakers. ATC's SCM50A SL (FL & FR), C3A SL (C) and SCM20A SL (RL & RR) monitors are also worth serious consideration. No mess with speaker cables, space saving, electronic crossover with their professional studio amplifiers optimised in bi/tri amplification configuration for each drive unit. ATC monitors have not been designed to favour any particular type of soundtrack. ATC monitors will instead distinguish themselves by reproducing movie and music soundtracks in a (amongst their other qualities) clean, precise and powerful manner.
Look at partnering the ATC monitors with Yamaha's CX-A5000 (they've done a fantastic job with this processor) and JL Audio's Fathom f112. For an even cleaner, smoother and more powerful bass over a larger area add a second Fathom f112.
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
bigboss
Moderator
If you're only interested in watching movies, and considering the rest of your AV equipment, you're wasting your money on the Oppo 105. Oppo 103 is more than enough. The only difference between the 103 & 105 is the higher quality DACS employed in its analogue outs. Otherwise, they're exactly the same players. You won't be using analogue outs, and will connect the player via HDMI to the pre/power amp which will be far superior than Oppo 105 in decoding audio.
CnoEvil said:
I can only agree with all the advice given already... It seems that you, like myself, are AV orientated and that if budget allows the best centre and subwoofer (or 2) is imperative.
I am only familiar with the Reference range with my particular amps and I believe they make a stunning combination...
My room dimesions are very similar and my system has no problem raising the roof! I find it totally engrossing at high and low levels
and believe the speakers to be extremely versatile in character and usability with the Uni Balance adjustment option, forward facing ports and the choice of tri amplification.
I built my system in stages with the Reference speakers coming in last, however I noticed improvements at each point. First the processor then the power amp and that was before I had the Kef's which I am certain I would have noticed the gain even moreso.
I would certainly recommend getting a proper demo of the Kef's especially with the Arcam's (both AV888/P777 and AV950/P777).
I can also only speak highly of the Oppo BDP 105... extremely versatlite if you ever do feel the need to use your awesome system for 2 channel
Hope I may have assisted in some way... I am intrigued to hear of your outcome... :cheers:
bigboss
Moderator
clinton333 said:I can also only speak highly of the Oppo BDP 105... extremely versatlite if you ever do feel the need to use your awesome system for 2 channel
For 2-channel, yes. But the OP is interested in movies only. So Oppo 103 is equally good as they're exactly the same players with same components except for the DACs in analogue outs.
Lots of advice already - its great pretending to spend someones £30k budget. Thats a great budget thats easily spent, great fun doing it
Personally I would spend more on the amplifier and consider that a higher priority than reference speakers.
Reference speakers under driven will likely sound worse than great speakers off a great amp thats driving them cleanly
The new Yamaha Power Amp looks like a good amp - but if you look inside you have 1 transformer and 2 Capacitors (allbeit monsters) feeding only 2 main channels of amplification thats divided into 5 / 6 channels when you look at it. I am not an expert but to me the design has compromsies becasue of cost, size and the amount of channels its powering
Now in comparison if you are only running 5 channels then the Bryston 9BSST2 - has a dedicated amplifier section per channel with its own transfomer per channel - not many power amps have that that makes it quite special. Like mini mono blocks really - its a chunk of your budget at £8k but 20 years warranty and a tue reknowned manufacturer of amplification is well worth thinking about. Sure you would get a deal on it as well if bought with other things
I first heard a Bryston power amp properly at WHF - then the first opportunity I got I bought one and I love mine, the thing is immense
I would think about 1 key point that I havent seen mentioned yet?
Are you having the room acoustically treated if its purpose built / designed? - This is a big Question as it will hugely affect the sound quality and I think choice of products you buy
1 If you are having the room Acoustically Treated - then you wont need a processor that based big on Room equalization - Bryston, Meridian, Arcam, Yamaha
2. If you are not having the room acoustically treated then I think you would want a processor that majors on an EQ System such as Onkyo, Anthem and Marantz that have Auddessey or ARC. You will get better overall results from thos systems than I feel you will from YPAO in the Yamaha Processor suggested which is only a basic eq system by my knowledge.
As you only want the processor for films and budget would be too tight after buying a Bryston Processor and Meridian Processors with the Bryston Amplification so maybe rule them out and look at the others. Shame the Bryston Processor I bet would be awesome
Speaker depends on preference to a certain degree but sub / satellite setup seems a better idea than floor standers for pure movies - smaller speakers image better generally which is great for home theartre.
For a subwoofer you could save a fortune to put towards other things and buy the ultimaite Value for Money Movie Sub Woofer - the BK Electronics Monolith (Or Monolith Plus if you need 500w to fill a big room) This would work great with an Auddessey based processor as it will eq and integrate the subwoofer as part of the installation. If not alternative products would be needed in the form of an antimode but they are only a few hundred pounds.
Or go all out and get a JL Audio Gotham but again that will much a huge chunk of your budget £10k - thats why the monolith is so highly rated its bloody cheap at £500. The Gotham would be amazing - hope they have one to see / hear at Bristol show this year
Personally I would spend more on the amplifier and consider that a higher priority than reference speakers.
Reference speakers under driven will likely sound worse than great speakers off a great amp thats driving them cleanly
The new Yamaha Power Amp looks like a good amp - but if you look inside you have 1 transformer and 2 Capacitors (allbeit monsters) feeding only 2 main channels of amplification thats divided into 5 / 6 channels when you look at it. I am not an expert but to me the design has compromsies becasue of cost, size and the amount of channels its powering
Now in comparison if you are only running 5 channels then the Bryston 9BSST2 - has a dedicated amplifier section per channel with its own transfomer per channel - not many power amps have that that makes it quite special. Like mini mono blocks really - its a chunk of your budget at £8k but 20 years warranty and a tue reknowned manufacturer of amplification is well worth thinking about. Sure you would get a deal on it as well if bought with other things
I first heard a Bryston power amp properly at WHF - then the first opportunity I got I bought one and I love mine, the thing is immense
I would think about 1 key point that I havent seen mentioned yet?
Are you having the room acoustically treated if its purpose built / designed? - This is a big Question as it will hugely affect the sound quality and I think choice of products you buy
1 If you are having the room Acoustically Treated - then you wont need a processor that based big on Room equalization - Bryston, Meridian, Arcam, Yamaha
2. If you are not having the room acoustically treated then I think you would want a processor that majors on an EQ System such as Onkyo, Anthem and Marantz that have Auddessey or ARC. You will get better overall results from thos systems than I feel you will from YPAO in the Yamaha Processor suggested which is only a basic eq system by my knowledge.
As you only want the processor for films and budget would be too tight after buying a Bryston Processor and Meridian Processors with the Bryston Amplification so maybe rule them out and look at the others. Shame the Bryston Processor I bet would be awesome
Speaker depends on preference to a certain degree but sub / satellite setup seems a better idea than floor standers for pure movies - smaller speakers image better generally which is great for home theartre.
For a subwoofer you could save a fortune to put towards other things and buy the ultimaite Value for Money Movie Sub Woofer - the BK Electronics Monolith (Or Monolith Plus if you need 500w to fill a big room) This would work great with an Auddessey based processor as it will eq and integrate the subwoofer as part of the installation. If not alternative products would be needed in the form of an antimode but they are only a few hundred pounds.
Or go all out and get a JL Audio Gotham but again that will much a huge chunk of your budget £10k - thats why the monolith is so highly rated its bloody cheap at £500. The Gotham would be amazing - hope they have one to see / hear at Bristol show this year
BenLaw
Well-known member
Yes, at this price you really should be treating your room and should also consider soffit mounting the speakers.
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
Hi ellisdj
This is why active speakers such as ATC's monitors are a great idea. Their state of the art drive units being powered by their specific amplification.
The 9BSST2 is an excellent amplifier and given that it costs over three times more then the MX-A5000 it should be a better amplifier.
Btw, JL Audio's Gotham sub woofer is not available in the UK yet.
All the best
Rick @ Musicraft
Yes your advice seems excellent, I would like to hear ATCs in a good environment. Hoping they have a good setup at Bristol this year - some effort on room acoustics will be good most didn't last year and as a result the Chord Electronics powering Kef Ref sounded terrible imo for example because of the wooden cladded room they was in
I didn't know you couldn't get a Gotham in the UK - I figured you might have to order it - its weird as it gives you a GBP price on the web page of £10,995
Its a lot of work demoing all options for that kind of money, all the traveling to do so etc. Whatever the chap ends up with I am sure he will be very happy and its a lot of fun / bit of stress in the mean time. Best of Luck to you
I didn't know you couldn't get a Gotham in the UK - I figured you might have to order it - its weird as it gives you a GBP price on the web page of £10,995
Its a lot of work demoing all options for that kind of money, all the traveling to do so etc. Whatever the chap ends up with I am sure he will be very happy and its a lot of fun / bit of stress in the mean time. Best of Luck to you
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