It was a good show Dave mate, some impressive sound there. We need to do another couple of days of demoing mate. Need to sort that outElectro said:
Electro
Well-known member
Hi ellisdj, thanks for the fantastic pictures and your thought on the equipment and sound quality.
I am really enjoying it . *good*
I am really enjoying it . *good*
Gazzip
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
See link below and then click on the Byrne project... Sorry for the website, which is way out of date and needs a lot of work and projects adding!
This photo of my listening room actually has my old IB2S's in it. Note the glass screen behind which, although double glazed with 2x22mm glass with acoustic inter-layers, allows LF through and prevents it collecting in the corners.
http://www.pow-architects.com/project-category/homeowner/
I have just been modelling your rooms bass repsonse and its funny roughly where you have those PMCs is roughly the best spot for bass - I cant tell for sure but it looks about right. Good skills
If you could crossover to your sub say 80hz or higher it makes a significant improvement to your overall low end power based on this model. Just saying.
I dont know if you would have more control over this aspect with studio monitors, I am guessing you would
If you could crossover to your sub say 80hz or higher it makes a significant improvement to your overall low end power based on this model. Just saying.
I dont know if you would have more control over this aspect with studio monitors, I am guessing you would
Gazzip
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
The combination of overall glass panel thickness, the variable thickness of the laminates making up each panel, the acoustic interlayers between laminates, and the 150mm gap between the two panels makes for great acoustic attenuation and disipation... or so the acoustic engineer told me when he designed it... ;-)
Gazzip
Well-known member
Gazzip
Well-known member
Gazzip
Well-known member
gowiththeflow said:
Great review! The PSI stuff was very good, although a little "industrial" looking. The issue with that room (for me) was the £10K's worth of active bass traps (four of them at £2.5K each) they had running in each corner and controlling the LF. Quite a hefty addition to the price tag there...
I completely missed the out of the main building area as I ran out of time. I was told overflow car park closed at 5pm and I was cutting it close so bailed just in case.
Seems like I missed a few gems in there - I really wanted to hear so big good horn speakers and I would have liked to have heard some magi's as well - never heard that style of speaker before either
Gutted - always next year
Seems like I missed a few gems in there - I really wanted to hear so big good horn speakers and I would have liked to have heard some magi's as well - never heard that style of speaker before either
Gutted - always next year
gowiththeflow
Well-known member
Thanks to Ellisdj for his report.
I went on the Sunday, which they were saying was much quieter than on Saturday. still plenty of people in attendance until late on, but not at all crowded.
As for the rooms and set-ups mentioned above,
Wilson - big scale and impressive.
Magico + Constellation - big disappointment. Deep bass boomed and distorted, it really set the large room off. The highs were quite forward too, but from what I could tell, mid performance hinted at a very transparent, deep and airy abilities. It must have been the room and set-up? Unfortunately, out of the several tracks played, we were treated to 3 lots of Portugese music, which rather restricted the variety of genres they could have demonstrated the Magicos with.
Gamut + Clearaudio - Big and impressive sound, but nothing they played and/or the system, seemed to portray any emotion. The flagship Clearaudio turntable is pure extreme HiFi porn.
The KEF Muon - loud like a high quality PA. Maybe what they say about Chord amplification is right after all. Too brash and clinical?
B&W 800 D3 + Classe - Well B&W went to great trouble and no doubt expense in creating their own listening room within a room, rather than using the existing accomodation. Basically, what looked like a large acoustic tent, with acoustic panelled walls and a flat ceiling. It worked very well acoustically. Powerful, clean, ultra low distortion, but capable of great subtlety and finesse. It went as quiet and delicate just as well as being able to go loud and powerful. I went in there when it was much quieter and less crowded, which I think helped enormously and allowed the B&W and Classe guys to be more relaxed and connected with the small audience. The Classe kit looks beautiful by the way.
Having got those showstoppers out of the way, I thought the best of the show lay elsewhere, much of which hasn't been touched on so far.
Primare has already been mentioned. One of the stars of the show for me and seemingly for a few others, who were returning for another listen. Lots of positive comments were overheard. It's interesting that in a show thats focus is primarily on the "High End", that Primare chose not to demo their flagship 60 series, but instead their very affordable i32 integrated, complete with its optional on-board DAC and streaming board.
In what was a small and probably very difficult room, they produced a very impressive series of demos. I've never heard Revel speakers before, but these were very very good, for relatively small standmounts. Much better than the likes of the KEF R series etc, that populate most UK HiFi stores. The Primare kit looks gorgeous and very well made, but it also sounds fantastic. Dynamic, fast, ultra clean, but involving at the same time. It wipes the floor with the likes of Naim IMHO.
Also bucking the trend of unaffordibility for the HiFi masses, was Icon Audio and its range of very affordable valve amplification. Very friendly and helpful guys, who were patient enough to help me understand a bit more than my limited understanding of valve amps. The full range was on display and they were more than happy to demo any of it on request. Demo wise, an excellent sound from what I suspect is a nice company to deal with. Another star of the show - a second (valve amp based) system beckons.
Focal + Naim - The beautiful Sopra 3 was paired with Naim electronics. After hearing a few other set-ups, this was Meh ??? Very flat, dull and boring sound. Next year they might have a Samsung TV in there too?
Sonus Faber, boring sounds from whatever set-up was running (Audio Research + il Cremonese ?). I didn't get to hear the Martin Logan stuff as that end of the room wasn't running at the time.
A personal disappointment for me was the Raidho D1.1. I don't know if it was the room, the music being played or the equipment. The speakers had a really sweet and non fatiguing sounding treble (that expensive ribbon driver), but there was not only very little low frequency evident as there seemed to be no drive in the sound at all. I was very disappointed as all I've heard abound Raidho speakers is 5 star plus and at Whittlebury last year, they sounded much better.
Luxman + Dali - Produced great sounds, but nothing to really excite me. I preferred the Triangle + Gato set-up in another suite.
Oh and I got to hear the KEF LS50 Actives as well. They did sound rather good. Anyone thinking of spending up to £2000 - £2500 on an amp and speakers, should really check these out. I'm convinced that for a budget below £3000, active and wireless active is the only game in town now. Tin boxes look to be on their way out.
I was also looking forward to hear some of the very highly rated YG Acoustics speakers, but I arrived too late for a worthwhile listen. The room was bulging with various besuited company and business types when I visited and didn't appear to be too welcoming. All too "corporate"....oh well, I can't afford any of that stuff anyway.
A tip I got from the lovely lady who took my ticket and dealt with my registration, was to first visit the separate Sandringham bulding and avoid the early crowds heading into the main exhibition areas. I suspect a number of show visitors may have missed this section of the exhibition. There were some real treates in there.
First call was into a small room demo'ing the Magneplanar 1.7 panels, with what may have been Audio Analogue amplification? Unfortunately I was very disappointed. Brash sound and a bland music being played that did nothing to highlight the supposed sonic capabilities of the Maggies. The only redeaming feature being that the 1.7s are very neat, modern looking units and could ft quite well into the right sort of living room, provide you have the space in which to make them work properly.
Things then got much better.
Heco Direkt speakers + Pure Sound tube monoblocks gave a really enjoyable sound, in a very cosy and typical UK living room sized room. Lots of positive comments being heard from other visitors.
Inspire Audio had their range of interesting turntables here. Lovely looking kit.
Finally three other stars of the show.
PS Audio - Excellent music being played. Very impressive kit with a really top notch sound and not at all OTT.
2nd top place in the whole show for me was Imerging Technologies + PSI active speakers. I spent two good sessions in there and came away very impressed. The music server and DAC was obviously superb, but the PSI active speakers were some of the best at the show. Even the small standmount model suprised and delighted with it's amazing range of talents and went lower that you could possibly expect.
Top place has to go to the G-Point Audio room, featuring the hORNS (Universum mk3 ???). Big avantegarde looking horn speakers, driven by big tube monoblocks and Lampizator electronics. Some interesting, obscure and enjoyable sounds, coupled with more familiar fare and produced in the most realistic and convincing manner. Huge scale when need too. This is what I expect "High End" to sound like. By far the best sounding set-up at the show.
If you've managed to read though all of my ramblings and thoughts, thank you for your perseverance. I did enjoy the day.
z
I went on the Sunday, which they were saying was much quieter than on Saturday. still plenty of people in attendance until late on, but not at all crowded.
As for the rooms and set-ups mentioned above,
Wilson - big scale and impressive.
Magico + Constellation - big disappointment. Deep bass boomed and distorted, it really set the large room off. The highs were quite forward too, but from what I could tell, mid performance hinted at a very transparent, deep and airy abilities. It must have been the room and set-up? Unfortunately, out of the several tracks played, we were treated to 3 lots of Portugese music, which rather restricted the variety of genres they could have demonstrated the Magicos with.
Gamut + Clearaudio - Big and impressive sound, but nothing they played and/or the system, seemed to portray any emotion. The flagship Clearaudio turntable is pure extreme HiFi porn.
The KEF Muon - loud like a high quality PA. Maybe what they say about Chord amplification is right after all. Too brash and clinical?
B&W 800 D3 + Classe - Well B&W went to great trouble and no doubt expense in creating their own listening room within a room, rather than using the existing accomodation. Basically, what looked like a large acoustic tent, with acoustic panelled walls and a flat ceiling. It worked very well acoustically. Powerful, clean, ultra low distortion, but capable of great subtlety and finesse. It went as quiet and delicate just as well as being able to go loud and powerful. I went in there when it was much quieter and less crowded, which I think helped enormously and allowed the B&W and Classe guys to be more relaxed and connected with the small audience. The Classe kit looks beautiful by the way.
Having got those showstoppers out of the way, I thought the best of the show lay elsewhere, much of which hasn't been touched on so far.
Primare has already been mentioned. One of the stars of the show for me and seemingly for a few others, who were returning for another listen. Lots of positive comments were overheard. It's interesting that in a show thats focus is primarily on the "High End", that Primare chose not to demo their flagship 60 series, but instead their very affordable i32 integrated, complete with its optional on-board DAC and streaming board.
In what was a small and probably very difficult room, they produced a very impressive series of demos. I've never heard Revel speakers before, but these were very very good, for relatively small standmounts. Much better than the likes of the KEF R series etc, that populate most UK HiFi stores. The Primare kit looks gorgeous and very well made, but it also sounds fantastic. Dynamic, fast, ultra clean, but involving at the same time. It wipes the floor with the likes of Naim IMHO.
Also bucking the trend of unaffordibility for the HiFi masses, was Icon Audio and its range of very affordable valve amplification. Very friendly and helpful guys, who were patient enough to help me understand a bit more than my limited understanding of valve amps. The full range was on display and they were more than happy to demo any of it on request. Demo wise, an excellent sound from what I suspect is a nice company to deal with. Another star of the show - a second (valve amp based) system beckons.
Focal + Naim - The beautiful Sopra 3 was paired with Naim electronics. After hearing a few other set-ups, this was Meh ??? Very flat, dull and boring sound. Next year they might have a Samsung TV in there too?
Sonus Faber, boring sounds from whatever set-up was running (Audio Research + il Cremonese ?). I didn't get to hear the Martin Logan stuff as that end of the room wasn't running at the time.
A personal disappointment for me was the Raidho D1.1. I don't know if it was the room, the music being played or the equipment. The speakers had a really sweet and non fatiguing sounding treble (that expensive ribbon driver), but there was not only very little low frequency evident as there seemed to be no drive in the sound at all. I was very disappointed as all I've heard abound Raidho speakers is 5 star plus and at Whittlebury last year, they sounded much better.
Luxman + Dali - Produced great sounds, but nothing to really excite me. I preferred the Triangle + Gato set-up in another suite.
Oh and I got to hear the KEF LS50 Actives as well. They did sound rather good. Anyone thinking of spending up to £2000 - £2500 on an amp and speakers, should really check these out. I'm convinced that for a budget below £3000, active and wireless active is the only game in town now. Tin boxes look to be on their way out.
I was also looking forward to hear some of the very highly rated YG Acoustics speakers, but I arrived too late for a worthwhile listen. The room was bulging with various besuited company and business types when I visited and didn't appear to be too welcoming. All too "corporate"....oh well, I can't afford any of that stuff anyway.
A tip I got from the lovely lady who took my ticket and dealt with my registration, was to first visit the separate Sandringham bulding and avoid the early crowds heading into the main exhibition areas. I suspect a number of show visitors may have missed this section of the exhibition. There were some real treates in there.
First call was into a small room demo'ing the Magneplanar 1.7 panels, with what may have been Audio Analogue amplification? Unfortunately I was very disappointed. Brash sound and a bland music being played that did nothing to highlight the supposed sonic capabilities of the Maggies. The only redeaming feature being that the 1.7s are very neat, modern looking units and could ft quite well into the right sort of living room, provide you have the space in which to make them work properly.
Things then got much better.
Heco Direkt speakers + Pure Sound tube monoblocks gave a really enjoyable sound, in a very cosy and typical UK living room sized room. Lots of positive comments being heard from other visitors.
Inspire Audio had their range of interesting turntables here. Lovely looking kit.
Finally three other stars of the show.
PS Audio - Excellent music being played. Very impressive kit with a really top notch sound and not at all OTT.
2nd top place in the whole show for me was Imerging Technologies + PSI active speakers. I spent two good sessions in there and came away very impressed. The music server and DAC was obviously superb, but the PSI active speakers were some of the best at the show. Even the small standmount model suprised and delighted with it's amazing range of talents and went lower that you could possibly expect.
Top place has to go to the G-Point Audio room, featuring the hORNS (Universum mk3 ???). Big avantegarde looking horn speakers, driven by big tube monoblocks and Lampizator electronics. Some interesting, obscure and enjoyable sounds, coupled with more familiar fare and produced in the most realistic and convincing manner. Huge scale when need too. This is what I expect "High End" to sound like. By far the best sounding set-up at the show.
If you've managed to read though all of my ramblings and thoughts, thank you for your perseverance. I did enjoy the day.
z
Those PSI Active bass traps get a good review on stereophile, their effect on freq response seems pretty significant but you would need some skill to get the best out of them.
Maybe they was lacking that skill at the show and didnt have them setup to the best of their potential in that demo.
They seem very expensive but they are a more domestic friendly option for people who dont want bass traps in their room but you have to pay high for that privilege
Maybe they was lacking that skill at the show and didnt have them setup to the best of their potential in that demo.
They seem very expensive but they are a more domestic friendly option for people who dont want bass traps in their room but you have to pay high for that privilege
Gazzip
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
I suggested to the distributor who was demonstrating the traps that perhaps an amp with tone controls was a cheaper alternative. He didn't appreciate my brand of humour judging by his deadpan expression...
gowiththeflow
Well-known member
Gazzip said:
It was a shame that two of the three PSI speakers were in what I'd call a "sh*t brown" coloured veneer. Not the best choice. They're not the best looking speakers, especially when you see some of the very stylish and creative modern designs around. I wouldn't call them ugly though.
The demo of the active bass traps seemed to impress a few people, but I thought the effect was very subtle and I wasn't convinced they were doing anything worthwhile. I must be going deaf? They said that using a pair was more usual and they only had 4 in there because they obviously have lots of them available .....and they could.
z
emperor's new clothes
Well-known member
ellisdj said:
Zodiac description and price. Gulp
http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/?product=gamut+zodiac+floorstanding+loudspeakers
gowiththeflow
Well-known member
There was a lot of Torus power conditoners being used at this show.
I have looked up the baby one being used on the primare / revel system that was so impressive
I am pretty sure from my photo it was the Torus TOT AVR - and that retailed at £3750 in 2015 pre brexit world.
Could this be the reason for the excellent sound quality? Could this be why the Primare i32 was only reviewed as 3 star ?
I have looked up the baby one being used on the primare / revel system that was so impressive
I am pretty sure from my photo it was the Torus TOT AVR - and that retailed at £3750 in 2015 pre brexit world.
Could this be the reason for the excellent sound quality? Could this be why the Primare i32 was only reviewed as 3 star ?
ellisdj said:
I think you are getting trapped in the star ratings, so what if it got 3 stars in what hi-fi. For all we know the guys testing were angry, had colds and had just been to a megadeath concert.
Maybe - its normally a consensus review so unless they were all ill at the time of testing the product they felt this about it
Clinical sound fails to engage - clinical to a point yes but I was engagedtreble lacks subtlety - no waystilted sense of rhythm - no way
I felt it was maybe a little clinical but not in a bad way, it was lacking a bit of sweetness as I said before but that could be ideal for someone who wants that sound
Maybe the Torus conditoner worked wonders on this system hence why it was it in there?
Clinical sound fails to engage - clinical to a point yes but I was engagedtreble lacks subtlety - no waystilted sense of rhythm - no way
I felt it was maybe a little clinical but not in a bad way, it was lacking a bit of sweetness as I said before but that could be ideal for someone who wants that sound
Maybe the Torus conditoner worked wonders on this system hence why it was it in there?
gowiththeflow
Well-known member
I suspect the power supply in the hotel is very poor in terms of noise. The whole complex is an awful mishmash of added on bits and very dated in parts (a shocking place to stay in too, apparently - no pun intended).
Rather than improving the quality of the sound, they may have been using these devices to eradicate electrical noise and interference of the sort that the majority of U.K. homes don't suffer badly from.
Of course many of the rooms were provided by HiFi retailers and distributors, who are actively involved in selling such magic hoodoo devices alongside their regular HiFi items.
z
Rather than improving the quality of the sound, they may have been using these devices to eradicate electrical noise and interference of the sort that the majority of U.K. homes don't suffer badly from.
Of course many of the rooms were provided by HiFi retailers and distributors, who are actively involved in selling such magic hoodoo devices alongside their regular HiFi items.
z
You can look at it that way - but many people were impressed with the system and that was in it.
However I doubt it was for the what hifi review of the I32 and it got a terrible review - so its worth bearing in mind. It was only playing on a modest set of speakers that got a 5 star review so maybe thats what it was?
On a side note while I was waiting for the Magico demo the owner I think of the Absolute Sound was talking the a chap from Metronome, they had their vinyl deck in there. He actually said the words - this is a good venue for a show - good solid rooms and good stable power - we havent used any power distribution or something to that effect.
Sp bearing in mind he is talking about Wilson Audio, Dagostino, Magico, DCS, Audio Reserch top flight systems he obviously knows what he is listening for in that regard. For what I hear of the magico they had the clear presentation where elements come from space with nothing around it - I dont think they did it, or the Wilson def didnt do it from where I sat as good as the GamuT Zodiacs - on the end of the uber Isotek products. These demos stand out to me
However I doubt it was for the what hifi review of the I32 and it got a terrible review - so its worth bearing in mind. It was only playing on a modest set of speakers that got a 5 star review so maybe thats what it was?
On a side note while I was waiting for the Magico demo the owner I think of the Absolute Sound was talking the a chap from Metronome, they had their vinyl deck in there. He actually said the words - this is a good venue for a show - good solid rooms and good stable power - we havent used any power distribution or something to that effect.
Sp bearing in mind he is talking about Wilson Audio, Dagostino, Magico, DCS, Audio Reserch top flight systems he obviously knows what he is listening for in that regard. For what I hear of the magico they had the clear presentation where elements come from space with nothing around it - I dont think they did it, or the Wilson def didnt do it from where I sat as good as the GamuT Zodiacs - on the end of the uber Isotek products. These demos stand out to me
Ellisdj
My example was extreme
they probably weren't ill nor had just been to a heavy metal concert and were tone def. A recommened hi-fi review is at the end of the day something the reviewer thought was good to them when they tested it in their demo room with kit hooked up they thought at the time best suited it.
There are just too many reasons why it may sound a lot better in another situation (room size , furnishings etc) with totally different hardware hooked up.
How I look at it. It's probably unlikely that the power supply could transform the sound that much. I have a feeling it is probably more like someone decided look I think this amp is good lets get a really good match for it and show what it really is capable of.
Would be interesting to hear from whoever put it together to reasons of the combination because as you say they hit gold given the price point and size of speakers. Pity that won't happen.
My example was extreme
There are just too many reasons why it may sound a lot better in another situation (room size , furnishings etc) with totally different hardware hooked up.
How I look at it. It's probably unlikely that the power supply could transform the sound that much. I have a feeling it is probably more like someone decided look I think this amp is good lets get a really good match for it and show what it really is capable of.
Would be interesting to hear from whoever put it together to reasons of the combination because as you say they hit gold given the price point and size of speakers. Pity that won't happen.
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