Hi Fi Rack dilemma.....help

[AndyB51]

Hi

New to the forum so hello to everyone.

Have been using an old Target Audio 5 tier rack for my hifi kit (Roksan Caspian Mk2/Musical Fidelity A3 CD/Nakamichi Cassette Deck 2/Proac Tablette 2000/Linn Axis/Squeezebox Duet) for several years and have recently picked up a good condition Soundstyle XS105 rack.

Having replaced all the acryllic shelf supports with a total of 50 new ones (as opposed to the original 20) I have set up the system again and had a listen. The clarity and separation seems similar but the overall sound seems to lack the bass, depth and warmth I had with the Target rack.

Unsure if I'm going mad or whether the glass shelves (as opposed to mdf) and the hollow tubular frame are creating a mid/top heavy sound. Has anyone had any experience of this with the Xs105 as I don't really want to start going down the isolation platforms route?

Cheers

Andy

 

[lambopower]

It's the glass shelves for sure. Coming from wood you're definately going to notice.

 

[AndyB51]

Cheers! I had a feeling it might be, going to have a trawl through some tunes tonight and see how I get on with it but I have a strange feeling the Target rack may be putting an apperance in sooner than later.

Do you reckon filler in the stand tubes would be worthwhile or will the glass just continue to make it 'toppy'?

 

[lambopower]

The added weight will improve the stability a bit but unless the glass is real thick you'll still be going back to your old "woody" eventually IMO

Try selling both a find an ex-demo atacama eris eco. I'm sure you could get it for a good price, they've been out for quite some time. I went from a regular hi-fi glass stand to it and couldn't be happier. Looks real nice too with those bamboo shelves (pretty heavy stuff). Fully modular so you can go to the roof with it if you choose to.

I'm never going to replace this thing.

 

[AndyB51]

Yup, you were right. Gave the Soundstyle a good testing over the weekend and have ended up reverting back to the wood so to speak!

I'l wait until I can get enough cash together for an Atacama or HiFi Racks offering

Thanks for the replies

 

[CnoEvil]

You could try making some cheap isolation platforms from thick plywood, to rest your components on. Use small rubber or Blu-tak feet between the wood and the glass. This should totally isolate your kit from the glass.

I would also fill the hollow legs of your rack as well.

 

[steve_1979]

Hi

New to the forum so hello to everyone.

Have been using an old Target Audio 5 tier rack for my hifi kit (Roksan Caspian Mk2/Musical Fidelity A3 CD/Nakamichi Cassette Deck 2/Proac Tablette 2000/Linn Axis/Squeezebox Duet) for several years and have recently picked up a good condition Soundstyle XS105 rack.

Having replaced all the acryllic shelf supports with a total of 50 new ones (as opposed to the original 20) I have set up the system again and had a listen. The clarity and separation seems similar but the overall sound seems to lack the bass, depth and warmth I had with the Target rack.

Unsure if I'm going mad or whether the glass shelves (as opposed to mdf) and the hollow tubular frame are creating a mid/top heavy sound. Has anyone had any experience of this with the Xs105 as I don't really want to start going down the isolation platforms route?

Cheers

Andy

I hate to say this (ok I don't really :shifty: ) but you're probably imaginging it. With solid state amps, CD players, streamers and cassette players the shelf isn't going to make any difference to the sound. A solid shelf can may a difference to the turntable though.

Just sayin'

 

[JoelSim]

Get one from hifiracks.co.uk

Made a hell of a difference to my system.

 

[Thompsonuxb]

Lol..... I had to laugh when I read this thread.

Try buying a few squash balls and cut them in half & place them under the feet of your kit.

Are you sure you heard a difference, pls try the glass shelves again and confirm try them with the squash balls under the feet before switching back. Let us know.

 

[Julian Stevens]

I've used Mana racks for many years (now, I understand, much sought after) and, ever since I replaced my Rose valve preamp, my system's been plagued with a bright, steely, transistory sound. Eventually, I traced the cause to the glass shelves which I've now replaced with wooden ones, initially 18mm MDF, then birch play and now, under just the power amp's so far, but with excellent results, horizontally laminated deal shelves. This is lighter than either MDF or birch play, though a myriad of alternative materials is available. They all produce different results but thankfully most of them don't cost much. I even tried an old fibreglass aerolam board (an offcut), acquired many years ago from a client that specialised in aircraft interiors, but that stuff's seriously expensive, especially the aluminium version, and you can't buy it cut to size.

Provided you have a good sturdy rack to start with, I recommend experimentation with shelves made of as many different materials as you can get hold of. A good local timber/hardware store, such as I'm fortunate enough to have, will cut them to size for very little money.

Having said all that, a friend who also uses Mana racks says it's all down to correct set-up, but that's a very fiddly and laborious procedure (the correct technique, apparently, is to level on three points and fine tune with the fourth). You have to disconnect and remove every component for a start which, if your system comprises as many as mine, is a major league PITA. You may put it all back together and decide it still doesn't sound right, meaning you have to start all over again. I just can't be arsed with all that any more, it was bad enough last time I did it 12 years ago. It's enough of a faff removing just the power amp's (a pair of Bryston 7B-SST's) to install a pair of new shelves for them to sit on.

These laminated deal shelves are brilliant. Whether I'll feel the need to experiment further with other materials remains to be seen.

 

[Julian Stevens]

I've used Mana racks for many years (now, I understand, much sought after) and, ever since I replaced my Rose valve preamp, my system's been plagued with a bright, steely, transistory sound. Eventually, I traced the cause to the glass shelves which I've now replaced with wooden ones, initially 18mm MDF, then birch play and now, under just the power amp's so far, but with excellent results, horizontally laminated deal shelves. This is lighter than either MDF or birch play, though a myriad of alternative materials is available. They all produce different results but thankfully most of them don't cost much. I even tried an old fibreglass aerolam board (an offcut), acquired many years ago from a client that specialised in aircraft interiors, but that stuff's seriously expensive, especially the aluminium version, and you can't buy it cut to size.

Provided you have a good sturdy rack to start with, I recommend experimentation with shelves made of as many different materials as you can get hold of. A good local timber/hardware store, such as I'm fortunate enough to have, will cut them to size for very little money.

Having said all that, a friend who also uses Mana racks says it's all down to correct set-up, but that's a very fiddly and laborious procedure (the correct technique, apparently, is to level on three points and fine tune with the fourth). You have to disconnect and remove every component for a start which, if your system comprises as many as mine, is a major league PITA. You may put it all back together and decide it still doesn't sound right, meaning you have to start all over again. I just can't be arsed with all that any more, it was bad enough last time I did it 12 years ago. It's enough of a faff removing just the power amp's (a pair of Bryston 7B-SST's) to install a pair of new shelves for them to sit on.

These laminated deal shelves are brilliant. Whether I'll feel the need to experiment further with other materials remains to be seen.

 

[Macspur]

Get one from hifiracks.co.uk

Made a hell of a difference to my system.

Agree... great guys to deal with too.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[ellisdj]

I have a podium reference from hifi racks and am very happy with them.

What i will say is that its a solid mass and you can improve the performance more with isolation products under the bits of kit.

I have also heard the atacama eris in a blind test against glass atacama and a concrete floor.

The atacama was the best at reducing vibration which adds phat to the sound.

This doesnt mean you will like it but technically it worked better than glass a solid concrete floor

 

[VOE]

I've got the XS105 but the biggest problem with it is its stability not the glass shelves. I can wobble my rack at the top whilst the amp at the bottom doesn't move a millimetre. The frame close around it does however! It is not the best design out there. How this mag gave it 5 starts I'll never know.

The glass does not make any difference to the sound in my setup. I use two glass shelves for my deck at the top as I have one spare. Even when played loud there is no vibration here or felt through the shelves.

 

[Glacialpath]

I hate to say this (ok I don't really :shifty: ) but you're probably imaginging it. With solid state amps, CD players, streamers and cassette players the shelf isn't going to make any difference to the sound. A solid shelf can may a difference to the turntable though.

Just sayin'

Right so the fact when the Hi-Fi was set up on a glass rack and the warmth the OP knew and loved from the old rack wasn't there but now it sounds brighter than before......that's just his imagination????? Please, you must think us listeners that actually hear a difference are all crazy. If he put it back on the old rack and hey presto the warmth is back then you are saying that's just his imagination????

So I bet if it's really sunny outside but there is snow on the ground he will think its warm just cause he knows the sun is warm when he goes out. But wait he gets out side and its cold...oh it's just his amagination, the snow is actually warm to touch and visibal breath doesn't mean any thing.

Try this. Put some music on nice and loud. Open a door to a cupboard or wardrobe made from MDF put you head in and listen to what happens to the music. Then do the same with a glass display cabinet and hear what happens. I'll be damed if you don't hear a difference. Though not as great the racks have the same effect on any system, solid state or not. It's called mechanical noise.

 

[Glacialpath]

Hi

New to the forum so hello to everyone.

Have been using an old Target Audio 5 tier rack for my hifi kit (Roksan Caspian Mk2/Musical Fidelity A3 CD/Nakamichi Cassette Deck 2/Proac Tablette 2000/Linn Axis/Squeezebox Duet) for several years and have recently picked up a good condition Soundstyle XS105 rack.

Having replaced all the acryllic shelf supports with a total of 50 new ones (as opposed to the original 20) I have set up the system again and had a listen. The clarity and separation seems similar but the overall sound seems to lack the bass, depth and warmth I had with the Target rack.

Unsure if I'm going mad or whether the glass shelves (as opposed to mdf) and the hollow tubular frame are creating a mid/top heavy sound. Has anyone had any experience of this with the Xs105 as I don't really want to start going down the isolation platforms route?

Cheers

Andy

Hey Andy. Sorry to hear the new rack didn't work out. I'm not knocking the other responces about isolation and such but if a rack needs all that don't to it to make it work properly than the manufacturers havn't made a very good rack IMO. I would take say you audio player and amp to someone like Audio-T and try as many different racks as they have. Try any isolation pads too but I'm sure the maufaturers have tried to impliment mesures so you don;t need any isolation. To me if it's more expensive it should be made better but we don't want to be gullible to manufacurers making something that has a high price tag but still sounds rubbish. You know what you like to hear and you know what you heard and seemingly didn't like from the glass rack. I think you would have to pay silly mony to get a glass rack that wouldn't make a system sound bright so I would stik with wood or Bamboo. Have a listen to a Quadrespire bamboo rack if you can.

I heard their demo from their own range from a glass rack, wood/MDF (unsure) and the bamboo one they had just made. The bamboo was by far the cleatest.

Again it's down to you, how you like your music to sound and budget of course. Sorry for my little rant on my above post. I didn't mean you directly but was just trying to make a point. No offense to anyone on here.

Let us all know what you end up with and why?

 

[Julian Stevens]

Having just installed my fifth 18mm laminated deal board, this one under my Bryston D:AC, I'm a complete convert to this material in preference to the original glass shelves that are a central feature of the Mana philosophy. The deal boards are also better than either MDF or birch ply (though I've not tried either maple or bamboo, the latter used by Atacama and QuadraSpire). No fine tuning is required, they don't go off-song and they're dirt cheap (just £7.45 each, cut to size).

These deal boards are the least dense and the lightest of all, which may account for why they sound best in every department. My system's now sweet, it images and captures detail well, it swings, the bass is tight and, when called for, has plenty of slam but without being over-damped and, above all else, I find myself enjoying reproduced music more than ever.

Yes, if heavily loaded in the middle, laminated boards do tend to sag across the grain, but that's easily remedied with a little wooden slat under the middle of each end. The boards each bearing a 50 lb power amp have hardly sagged at all.

Of course, it's all down to system context and personal preferences, but one thing's for sure ~ I'll never go back to the steely, transistory sound that for so many years afflicted my system when I was using glass shelves.

 

[tomlinscote]

Err sorry if being a bit thick (dense!!) here but what exactly is deal board, does it go by any other name and where can I get some?

 

[Al ears]

Err sorry if being a bit thick (dense!!) here but what exactly is deal board, does it go by any other name and where can I get some?

You are not being dense the wood is (or not, if you believe the above)

The Deal referred to is fir or pine wood.

 

[andyjm]

Shelves, supports, equipment placement can all make a difference if the equipment in question is microphonic. If it isn't microphonic, then you are just wasting your time and money fiddling around with supports.

A turntable is the worst microphonic offender, it is after all a vibration detector. Next comes valve amps - the internal structure of the valves are sensitive to vibration. In days gone by, even transitor amps could be microphonic as the components wobbled around inside the amp.

These days, with surface mounted components, very few pieces of equipment exhibit microphonic behavoir.

A very simple test:

1. Turn the volume way up, but with no music playing.

2. Tap the device in question with a pecil - hear anything out of the speaker?

3. Yes - its microphonic, No - it isn't.

If it isn't microphonic, no amount of messing with shelving will make the slightest difference.

 

[Julian Stevens]

I've generally got on very well with these deal boards. They're not laminated in the sense of having a bonded outer skin of different material, like a kitchen worktop. Rather, because wooden boards are available only in limited widths, not much more than that of a plank or floorboard, laminated in this context means that they consist of several sections (planks) bonded side to side. Whilst this may sound a bit naff, in practice they're (almost) as strong as if they were a single panel. And they're really inexpensive from any decent home hardware/timber store. Being such a light yet strong material, they absorb unwanted vibration really well.

Not entirely satisfied, though, I've gone a few steps further and bought a quartet of Vibrapods (only £23 via amazon -- lots of reviews are available to check out online) and a sheet of self-adhesive Dynamat Xtreme (only £5.95 from a supplier in Enniskillen, post-free via eBay). Unless tailored to just a small panel, the latter does too good a job damping vibrations and kills the music. But a judiciously small piece (about 4" x 4") strikes a very acceptable balance.

And, as if all that weren't enough experimentation (as it's so inexpensive, I figure WTH, try anything that's easily available), a neighbour at my place of work who makes custom kitchen units uses panel material that comprises a pair of 8mm fine-grained chipboards sandwiching a 34mm honeycomb card interior. For just a fiver, he cut me one to the exact size I require and that has now supplanted the deal board under my pre-amp, with slight but worthwhile further improvements. If you live anywhere near Bristol, he (Matt Antrobus) can be contacted on 07850 664 431. If you don't live near Bristol, he may be prepared to mail a board cut to your required size, though that'll certainly incur additional costs. Someone in your area who makes kitchen units to order may use the same material and may also be prepared to cut a panel to the size you require, though you'll have to do your own legwork to find out.

So now, having come to the conclusion that the pre-amp is the single component most in need of careful damping, I've damped its top plate with a small patch of Dynamat Xtreme, it sits on a quartet of Vibrapods (removing the pre-amp's own feet is an option but not really necessary) and they sit on top of this new honeycomb board. It's all about finding just the right balance of enough but not too much damping.

 

[Julian Stevens]

This honeycomb board yields benefits in some areas but is a backward step in others. Instruments and their focus seem to lose a bit of clarity and articulation. Best results so far remain from the deal boards under every component (plus the Vibrapods under the pre-amp and a small patch of Dynamat Xtreme stuck to its top plate). Subtle but critical.

The most annoying thing is that the £600 budget system (Rotel 30 wpc integrated amp, Wharfedale Diamonds and a JPW subwoofer) in my large, open and airy office remains tops for sheer musical communication.

 

[ellisdj]

Interesting Video on this topic was sent to me from another forum member the other day.

Personally this video supports a lot I have learnt in the last year - but not with the products in question.

I also dont see how killing the vibrations with the Dynamat kills the music?

You cant add to the music with isolation products you can only take away whats not supposed to be there