Hi-Fi Hype !!

[Blacksabbath25]

1 . I agree that speakers are very important factor the more you spend the better the sound you will get back as long as you set them up correctly with your room .

2 . I think amplifiers are an important factor here in getting sound right in the first place in order to get the most out of your speakers in order to drive your speakers probably most cheap amps have small power sources but the more you spend then you start getting bigger power sources to drive your speakers . Then you start getting better components inside better construction of case work better shielding in side better connections .

I still believe that you get is what you pay for so if you want quality and a quality sound that's right for your ears then there has always been an upgrade ladder to climb in the Hifi world in all the years I have been buying Hifi it's just a factor of life and no difference in saying I want to drive a better car or a better make its just human nature to want better and I believe that high end Hifi is better in every way

 

[andyjm]

I did not suggest that the bits in high end were expensive. I suggested that some of them were not standard mass produced bits. Krell are known throughout the industry for doing as you describe.

Look under the bonnet of something from Audio Research, Ayre Acoustics or Devialet with their multitude of patents then you might see things a little differently.

Perhaps you could give an example of the bits that are not mass produced (absent the mains transformer and the case) ?

 

[Snooker]

Just a last note after reading all the posts

I still think as I said originally, that the source recording is the most important part followed by the speakers, then (Built in dac/amplifier)

As somebody in this thread has already pointed out, you could buy a cd player for a very small amount of money, so long as the mechanism is quite sounding, as all it does is transfer the digital output to a dac and then amlplifier, same applies to internet radio and wi-fi/airplay streaming

So you only need to spend a little amount of money for a cd player/internet radio and wi-fi/airplay streaming unit, as it just transfers the digital signals to the dac/amplifier

So the cd player/internet radio/hi-fi and airplay streaming unit could cost say around £250

This would leave money for a built in dac/amplifier plus speakers, say around £1000 for speakers, and around £750 for (dac/amplifier)

So you could spend again around £2000 for the above system neglecting headphones at say £200, and I believe the sound quality from a “well matched system of this cost” would be around say 90 to 95% of what is possible

But of course if you want to find that last 5 to 10 % (as somebody in this thread has already pointed out), then buy much more expensive gear, but even then you will have to find a very well matched system, as I am sure the vast majority of high end gear would not sound better than this £2000 system as a rough example

 

[Ajani]

Just a last note after reading all the posts

I still think as I said originally, that the source recording is the most important part followed by the speakers, then (Built in dac/amplifier)

As somebody in this thread has already pointed out, you could buy a cd player for a very small amount of money, so long as the mechanism is quite sounding, as all it does is transfer the digital output to a dac and then amlplifier, same applies to internet radio and wi-fi/airplay streaming

So you only need to spend a little amount of money for a cd player/internet radio and wi-fi/airplay streaming unit, as it just transfers the digital signals to the dac/amplifier

So the cd player/internet radio/hi-fi and airplay streaming unit could cost say around £250

This would leave money for a built in dac/amplifier plus speakers, say around £1000 for speakers, and around £750 for (dac/amplifier)

So you could spend again around £2000 for the above system neglecting headphones at say £200, and I believe the sound quality from a “well matched system of this cost” would be around say 90 to 95% of what is possible

But of course if you want to find that last 5 to 10 % (as somebody in this thread has already pointed out), then buy much more expensive gear, but even then you will have to find a very well matched system, as I am sure the vast majority of high end gear would not sound better than this £2000 system as a rough example

As you rightly said, you "believe". Just bear in mind that this 90 to 95% is a subjective opinion. Someone else will hear the same components and claim it's only 60 to 65%.

The other option would be to look at distortion, frequency response measurements etc and do an actual calculation of how your proposed components compare with the best mesurements available.

 

[Womaz]

I am not really sure that Hifi enjoyment can be measured in percentage terms to be honest.

 

[MrReaper182]

1 . I agree that speakers are very important factor the more you spend the better the sound you will get back as long as you set them up correctly with your room .

2 . I think amplifiers are an important factor here in getting sound right in the first place in order to get the most out of your speakers in order to drive your speakers probably most cheap amps have small power sources but the more you spend then you start getting bigger power sources to drive your speakers . Then you start getting better components inside better construction of case work better shielding in side better connections .

I still believe that you get is what you pay for so if you want quality and a quality sound that's right for your ears then there has always been an upgrade ladder to climb in the Hifi world in all the years I have been buying Hifi it's just a factor of life and no difference in saying I want to drive a better car or a better make its just human nature to want better and I believe that high end Hifi is better in every way

Your spot on. Matching your speakers to your amps sound is very important. People have come on this website in the past (and I no doubt they will continue too) and said that a 5 star rated speaker is overrated. I can bet you that the whole problem why they dislike what ever 5 star rated speaker they are bitching about is they matched it with the wrong amp.

 

[lindsayt]

NSA, excellent post.

I'd be interested in reading about your current system and how you've arrived at it over the years, with the strengths and weaknesses of the components you've tried (which you could do by starting a new thread in the "My System" section).

 

[lindsayt]

MrReaper182, there are some What Hi-fi 5 star rated speakers that I will never like, no matter what amplification is used with them.

 

[Gazzip]

I did not suggest that the bits in high end were expensive. I suggested that some of them were not standard mass produced bits. Krell are known throughout the industry for doing as you describe.

Look under the bonnet of something from Audio Research, Ayre Acoustics or Devialet with their multitude of patents then you might see things a little differently.

Perhaps you could give an example of the bits that are not mass produced (absent the mains transformer and the case) ?

Handmade VGT Volume control pot in Ayre Acoustics pre-amplifiers, the 1µF, 600VDC Teflon capacitors in the ARC Reference 5SE Pre-amplifier and Chord Electronics Programmable Field Gate Array DAC technology to name three.

I also struggle to fathom how you can exclude the hand wound, bespoke mains transformers from this as they do affect sound quality and they are expensive.

 

[MrReaper182]

MrReaper182, there are some What Hi-fi 5 star rated speakers that I will never like, no matter what amplification is used with them.

Some people think just because they don't like something that makes it automatically rubbish. Plenty of things I don't like in the hi-fi world that have gotten 5 stars reviews but I would never say those products are not 5 star sounding just because the sound is not for me.

 

[Snooker]

I also struggle to fathom how you can exclude the hand wound, bespoke mains transformers from this as they do affect sound quality and they are expensive.

Ok, so this is now actually my very last reply in relation to the above point, and again is just my opinion, its just I do get a little passionate about it at times

I believe that power leads, and if a power supply transformer is wound by hand or machine will make no audiable difference at all, as the alternating voltage is changed into a direct voltage and most importantly the now 100hz ripple is then smoothed by a big capacitor and then fed to a regulator, so that the direct voltage is as smooth as can be without any audiable ripples, this I believe is science fact in this case

 

[Gaz37]

[/quote]

.

I also struggle to fathom how you can exclude the hand wound, bespoke mains transformers from this as they do affect sound quality and they are expensive.

[/quote]

But are they really, or have we been duped into believing that they are?

Consider the materials used, nothing really pricey there I would suggest.

Then the labour involved, how much is the "hand winder" paid per hour & how long does it take them to make a transformer?

Developement costs, we have known how to make a transformer for many years, the same applies to the calculations for windings etc so that isn't truly a factor either.

I's be amazed if a competant electronics student couldn't make a transformer every bit as good for (well) under £50

 

[andyjm]

I did not suggest that the bits in high end were expensive. I suggested that some of them were not standard mass produced bits. Krell are known throughout the industry for doing as you describe.

Look under the bonnet of something from Audio Research, Ayre Acoustics or Devialet with their multitude of patents then you might see things a little differently.

Perhaps you could give an example of the bits that are not mass produced (absent the mains transformer and the case) ?

Handmade VGT Volume control pot in Ayre Acoustics pre-amplifiers, the 1µF, 600VDC Teflon capacitors in the ARC Reference 5SE Pre-amplifier and Chord Electronics Programmable Field Gate Array DAC technology to name three.

I also struggle to fathom how you can exclude the hand wound, bespoke mains transformers from this as they do affect sound quality and they are expensive.

Hmmn. Field programmable gate arrays are manufactured in their 10,000s. That's kind of the point. A cheap multi-purpose IC that can be programmed to perform different tasks depending on the programming. Not sure if Chord use Xilinx, but Xilinx FPGAs are widely used in DSP applications. Squeezebox used them across their range. The programming will probably be Chord's, but not the IC.

Teflon capacitors are also widely available, and are certainly mass produced. Not sure what is special about 1 microfarad 600v capacitors.

The Ayre Acoustics pot, while extraordinarily complicated mechanically, is made up of generic components, a few bearings, resistor ladder and (of all things..) a toothed belt and a stepper motor. I might give you that the sliding switch is quite fancy but the rest of the bits are nothing special.

To be honest, I am not sure you have made your case with the examples above.

 

[Gaz37]

"You get what you pay for" that phrase is the marketing person's dream come true lol

Marketing and advertising are the ONLY reasons that Nurofen have ever managed to sell a single box of painkillers, the active ingredients of Nurofen are exactly the same as those of a generic Ibuprofen tablet, yet people seem perfectly happy a lot more for a branded item & probably swear blind that they work better.

 

[Vladimir]

I did not suggest that the bits in high end were expensive. I suggested that some of them were not standard mass produced bits. Krell are known throughout the industry for doing as you describe.

Look under the bonnet of something from Audio Research, Ayre Acoustics or Devialet with their multitude of patents then you might see things a little differently.

Perhaps you could give an example of the bits that are not mass produced (absent the mains transformer and the case) ?

Handmade VGT Volume control pot in Ayre Acoustics pre-amplifiers, the 1µF, 600VDC Teflon capacitors in the ARC Reference 5SE Pre-amplifier and Chord Electronics Programmable Field Gate Array DAC technology to name three.

I also struggle to fathom how you can exclude the hand wound, bespoke mains transformers from this as they do affect sound quality and they are expensive.

Hmmn. Field programmable gate arrays are manufactured in their 10,000s. That's kind of the point. A cheap multi-purpose IC that can be programmed to perform different tasks depending on the programming. Not sure if Chord use Xilinx, but Xilinx FPGAs are widely used in DSP applications. Squeezebox used them across their range. The programming will probably be Chord's, but not the IC.

Teflon capacitors are also widely available, and are certainly mass produced. Not sure what is special about 1 microfarad 600v capacitors.

The Ayre Acoustics pot, while extraordinarily complicated mechanically, is made up of generic components, a few bearings, resistor ladder and (of all things..) a toothed belt and a stepper motor. I might give you that the sliding switch is quite fancy but the rest of the bits are nothing special.

To be honest, I am not sure you have made your case with the examples above.

But is it catproof?

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

I still think as I said originally, that the source recording is the most important part followed by the speakers, then (Built in dac/amplifier)

I don't know if it will help you. But allow me two pratctical example. In Switzerland, I made a very good deal in buying a Clearaudio cartidge. For helping out the storekeeper, I accepted to help out a client that bought a complete Goldmund chain and was complaining about bad sound.

I was announced by the store and came to the villa of this person and he brought me to the room he had. As I stepped in the room, I had a shock. The room looked a little bit like this :

He had wonderful albums, with some very rare vinyls, all runing on a very good turntable, and it sounded horrible. Why ? Room. I decided to help him to move the set to an other room, tinyer but more accurate, and he gained a lot. I advised him to contact a person specialized in room preparation (for home cinema and hifi, they are some little few of them). The problem was solved a few months later.

Second example : A friend I know for long times now lives in a flat and enjoyed listening all styles of electronic music. Generally, he listened Gaber, Hardstyle, Hardcore, IDM, other electro styles. For a long time, I didn't realized that he used some very fine speaker. One of those high end Mitsubishi Diatone speaker that he found for cheap at a Thrift shop. We grew older, and he started to listen to some more diversed types of music and he started to enjoy good music quality. Not so long ago, he said to me during a drink : "I will throw away my speakers and buy some good stuff... do you know a good speaker I could put in my flat ?" I was surprised and asked him "why he wants to do that, his speakers are really fine", but he said to me their wasn't . So I had a look more at those and I saw quickly a problem. The two speakers was on the floor, under a sort of little table, very near together and the sofa wasn't placed in a triangle at all. We moved the things a little bit and I found two little bed tables that could support the speakers for making them come higher. We centered the speaker to be at equal distance from each side of the room and the sofa was removed to the correct triangle position. ----> he was blown away.

As you can see. In those two, in life examples, we had fine gear, and we could not critic the source recording, but it sounded very bad for placement reasons.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

NSA, excellent post.

I'd be interested in reading about your current system and how you've arrived at it over the years, with the strengths and weaknesses of the components you've tried (which you could do by starting a new thread in the "My System" section).

I will take time to make this in a while.