Hi Def Audio Formats...?

[Alec]

A while ago i asked some questions for a friend setting up a home cinema system. He got the Onkyo 506, and has all of a sudden decided he isnt happy with the fact it cannot accept hd audio via hdmi...So, partly for his benefit if he decides to change his amp, and for my own interest as i might set up a system myself soon(ish), i just thought id run a couple of quick questions by you all.

Firstly, am i right in thinking that the 506 cannot output hd audio anyway, even tho optical leads are capable of it...?

Secondly, is it a case of an amp being able to decode hd audio or not, or is it more important to look for certain types of hd format, and how many types are there...?

Finally, and i know im talking in generalities, but what features should one expect when moving up through the price ranges, and do they really matter (personal thing, i know - maybe i should ask why do they matter)...? For example, it seems you dont get pre-outs for less than 400, video and upsampling/scaling will set you back a bit more, etc...?

 

[Gerrardasnails]

al7478:
A while ago i asked some questions for a friend setting up a home cinema system. He got the Onkyo 506, and has all of a sudden decided he isnt happy with the fact it cannot accept hd audio via hdmi...So, partly for his benefit if he decides to change his amp, and for my own interest as i might set up a system myself soon(ish), i just thought id run a couple of quick questions by you all.

Firstly, am i right in thinking that the 506 cannot output hd audio anyway, even tho optical leads are capable of it...?

Secondly, is it a case of an amp being able to decode hd audio or not, or is it more important to look for certain types of hd format, and how many types are there...?

Finally, and i know im talking in generalities, but what features should one expect when moving up through the price ranges, and do they really matter (personal thing, i know - maybe i should ask why do they matter)...? For example, it seems you dont get pre-outs for less than 400, video and upsampling/scaling will set you back a bit more, etc...?

You can't get HD audio through optical or coaxial. An amp can either decode the signal and process HD audio or it can't. Some older receivers can't do that but you can stream the audio through to a BD player that can. Other older receivers and possibly the 506 (I don't know the spec) can pass the audio via 6 (for a 5.1 set up, 8 for a 7.1) stereo interconnects, as long as the BD player has multichannel out (the PS3 for instance, doesn't).

Pre outs seem to start at the Sony 2400es level. A must for me, others don't need them. Upscaling is not important to me as all my kit is hdmi and my receiver only upscales analogue inputs. Others might want to upscale their Sky HD box from 1080i to 1080p and then you would need to spend a bit more on a receiver that upscales hdmi.

The sound is 90% of the receiver for me. HD audio is just brilliant. You hear pretty much everything. In Iron Man you hear shells falling to the floor once gun shot has been fired. In Ratatouille, the scene with the waterfall, you feel like it's pouring down inside your house.

 

[Alec]

Thanks, tho im still digesting some of that.

a quick google when i was with said mate yesterday indicated one could get hd audio with an optical cable, tho it was jsut some random question/answer site i looked on so i guess it could be nonsense.

Also, the ps3 specs seems to me to say it does handle hd audio, or, at least, it says "yes" under decoding of all the formats on the review here, i think...

i think im spectacularly confused...

 

[nads]

PS3and 506 would be a bad idea.

If that is what you are thinking.

 

[Alec]

nads:

PS3and 506 would be a bad idea.

If that is what you are thinking.

Ahem. No, its what a friend has done, and is regretting. to be fair, he was going on my advice, and so i feel a bit guiilty. So, for both our benefit, im trying to figure some things out now in case he decides to make a change, and in case i get a setup in the not too distant future.

 

[professorhat]

Definitely no HD audio over optical. It can't handle the amount of data which needs to be sent. Either HDMI or multichannel analogue connections are your only routes for HD audio at the moment. With the PS3, HDMI is your only route.

And yes, PS3 will decode all the HD audio formats onboard and output as PCM so the Onkyo 576 would be fine as it can accept the PCM audio through its HDMI socket. However, it can't decode the new formats onboard - not a problem for the PS3 since it does this but if he ever upgraded his Blu-Ray player (to say the Denon DVD-2500BT), he might miss that functionality.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

al7478:
Thanks, tho im still digesting some of that.

a quick google when i was with said mate yesterday indicated one could get hd audio with an optical cable, tho it was jsut some random question/answer site i looked on so i guess it could be nonsense.

Also, the ps3 specs seems to me to say it does handle hd audio, or, at least, it says "yes" under decoding of all the formats on the review here, i think...

i think im spectacularly confused...

PS3 can decode HD audio but the 506 wouldn't accept it from the PS3. The 506 has multi channel output so if he gets a player that has multi channel input, he could get HD audio. Optical or coaxial definitely CANNOT carry HD audio signals.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

professorhat:
Definitely no HD audio over optical. It can't handle the amount of data which needs to be sent. Either HDMI or multichannel analogue connections are your only routes for HD audio at the moment. With the PS3, HDMI is your only route.

And yes, PS3 will decode all the HD audio formats onboard and output as PCM so the Onkyo 576 would be fine as it can accept the PCM audio through its HDMI socket. However, it can't decode the new formats onboard - not a problem for the PS3 since it does this but if he ever upgraded his Blu-Ray player (to say the Denon DVD-2500BT), he might miss that functionality.

It's a 506, can it accept PCM?

 

[Clare Newsome]

I suspect the confusion re HD/optical came from online discussions of Sky+ HD sound, which of course is transmitted via optical (though isn't HD Audio, being standard Dolby Digital).

 

[professorhat]

Gerrardasnails:professorhat:
Definitely no HD audio over optical. It can't handle the amount of data which needs to be sent. Either HDMI or multichannel analogue connections are your only routes for HD audio at the moment. With the PS3, HDMI is your only route.

And yes, PS3 will decode all the HD audio formats onboard and output as PCM so the Onkyo 576 would be fine as it can accept the PCM audio through its HDMI socket. However, it can't decode the new formats onboard - not a problem for the PS3 since it does this but if he ever upgraded his Blu-Ray player (to say the Denon DVD-2500BT), he might miss that functionality.

ÿ

It's a 506, can it accept PCM?

Sorry yes, realise that wasn't very clear in my post. The 506 can't accept PCM, but if he was to swap for the 576, that can accept PCM (but can't decode formats as outlined).

ÿ

 

[Alec]

OK, so the optical thing is definitely a no go. Sorry for the doubt, i just googled a phrase such as "can optical cable carry hi def audio", and got a wrong answer, but, you know, from elsewhere so im not surprised it cobblers.

hey, the 576 is only £300! He was thinking of the 606, or really any of the amps around 400, far as we can tell from the revies here. i think its fair to say he just wants (and i would too) the easiest way of getting the full benefit of blu ray (no sky hd for either of us as yet) as simply as possible, with his speakers - if relevant, he has one of the q acoustics packages. the one with the 4 stand mount speakers, but replaced the front with their floorstanders).

For me, i havent got a HC yet, but will be getting a bdp soonish and will get the best i can justify, and base my home cinema choices on that (and countless other factors, but thats not relevant right now.

if you get somethig that outputs hd audio as pcm ie the ps3, then an amp that can output pcm, does that mean you are actually hearing hi def audio? i thought pcm just meant basic analogue audio...?

doing it via several channels with standard rca cables would mean having loads of leads coming from he source, then loads from amp to speakers too (tho thats jsut the speakers cables that are already there isnt it? plus several cables from source to amp as i said?)?

 

[professorhat]

al7478:hey, the 576 is only £300!

Onkyo 576 just £195 here. But the 606 would be better still so if he has the budget, it's a good step up.

al7478:if you get somethig that outputs hd audio as pcm ie the ps3, then an amp that can output pcm, does that mean you are actually hearing hi def audio? i thought pcm just meant basic analogue audio...?

Nope, have a read on good old Wiki!

al7478:doing it via several channels with standard rca cables would mean having loads of leads coming from he source, then loads from amp to speakers too (tho thats jsut the speakers cables that are already there isnt it? plus several cables from source to amp as i said?)?

Yup, connecting a Blu-Ray player to an amp via the multichannel outputs requires at least 6 RCA cables (or 3 pairs like the standard interconnects you'd use on a CD player) for 5.1 and 8 cables (or 4 pairs) for 7.1. As well as the speaker cable.

 

[Alec]

professorhat:al7478:hey, the 576 is only £300!

Onkyo 576 just £195 here. But the 606 would be better still so if he has the budget, it's a good step up.

al7478:if you get somethig that outputs hd audio as pcm ie the ps3, then an amp that can output pcm, does that mean you are actually hearing hi def audio? i thought pcm just meant basic analogue audio...?

Nope, have a read on good old Wiki!

al7478:doing it via several channels with standard rca cables would mean having loads of leads coming from he source, then loads from amp to speakers too (tho thats jsut the speakers cables that are already there isnt it? plus several cables from source to amp as i said?)?

Yup, connecting a Blu-Ray player to an amp via the multichannel outputs requires at least 6 RCA cables (or 3 pairs like the standard interconnects you'd use on a CD player) for 5.1 and 8 cables (or 4 pairs) for 7.1. As well as the speaker cable.

Many thanks!

So, with the 606, one could just go ps3>hdmi>amp>hdmi>tv...? (i should have written that the opposite way around shouldnt i?)...

What would one do with the ps3 and 576, in order to hear hi def audio?

Had a look at that wiki page, still a bit confused. thought i was used to discussing pcm in a stereo context, but am still unsure of the implications here...

 

[professorhat]

Yup, PS3 to amp with HDMI and amp to TV with HDMI is spot on. This would be the same with the 576. You then set the PS3 to output Linear PCM via the HDMI socket - this will set the PS3 to decode all formats onboard and output as Linear PCM.

To be honest, don't really know the techincalities of PCM - my basic understanding is PCM is a digital format, and can be used for both stereo and multichannel audio. In this instance, we're using multichannel.

 

[Liam19]

I'd say definitely consider the Sony STR-DG820 here, if you want an amp that can not only accept PCM from the PS3, but also decode HD audio itself should you ever need that capability in future. It's a 5-star WHF receiver also.

An absolute bargain at only £229.99 at Play.com (I'm saving up!) - http://www.play.com/Electronics/Electronics/4-/5749548/-/Product.html?searchstring=Sony+STR-DG820&searchsource=0

 

[Alec]

professorhat:

Yup, PS3 to amp with HDMI and amp to TV with HDMI is spot on. This would be the same with the 576. You then set the PS3 to output Linear PCM via the HDMI socket - this will set the PS3 to decode all formats onboard and output as Linear PCM.

To be honest, don't really know the techincalities of PCM - my basic understanding is PCM is a digital format, and can be used for both stereo and multichannel audio. In this instance, we're using multichannel.

Yeah, it sounds like maybe it acts as a "wrapper" to put other formats into, then theyre decoded later in the cain. but that sounds wrong doesnt it...?

ionce heard a similar explanation of WAV i think. maybe it mademore sense in that context...maybe a mean FLAC...sorry, im waffling.

Could you expand a bit on what you said about upgrading to that denon (tho that isnt on the cards for either of us any time soon...)?

So, th e576 and the 606 would mean you are hearing hi def audio, and both use the same method to do it...

The fact the 576 is so much cheaper implies you miss out somewhere...ill go compare...

 

[Alec]

professorhat:

Yup, PS3 to amp with HDMI and amp to TV with HDMI is spot on. This would be the same with the 576. You then set the PS3 to output Linear PCM via the HDMI socket - this will set the PS3 to decode all formats onboard and output as Linear PCM.

To be honest, don't really know the techincalities of PCM - my basic understanding is PCM is a digital format, and can be used for both stereo and multichannel audio. In this instance, we're using multichannel.

Yeah, it sounds like maybe it acts as a "wrapper" to put other formats into, then theyre decoded later in the cain. but that sounds wrong doesnt it...?

ionce heard a similar explanation of WAV i think. maybe it mademore sense in that context...maybe a mean FLAC...sorry, im waffling.

Could you expand a bit on what you said about upgrading to that denon (tho that isnt on the cards for either of us any time soon...)?

So, th e576 and the 606 would mean you are hearing hi def audio, and both use the same method to do it...

The fact the 576 is so much cheaper implies you miss out somewhere...ill go compare...

 

[Alec]

compared, and im really confused. the summary of th e576 review says "some hd audio support", but then it says "no" by the hd audio formats listed...Thats what i meant in my OP when i said are hd audio formats either supported or not supported...

 

[Gerrardasnails]

al7478:compared, and im really confused. the summary of th e576 review says "some hd audio support", but then it says "no" by the hd audio formats listed...Thats what i meant in my OP when i said are hd audio formats either supported or not supported...

No, the 606 decodes on board, the lower Onkyos don't.

 

[Clare Newsome]

Text of the 576 review is quite clear:

Most notable is onboard decoding of Dolby Digital Plus and the ability to accept high-definition audio as linear PCM via HDMI. The highest quality codecs, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, aren't accepted, however, so you'll need a Blu-ray player that can decode onboard to sample those.

 

[Alec]

Clare Newsome:

Text of the 576 review is quite clear:

Most notable is onboard decoding of Dolby Digital Plus and the ability to accept high-definition audio as linear PCM via HDMI. The highest quality codecs, Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio, aren't accepted, however, so you'll need a Blu-ray player that can decode onboard to sample those.

Thanks.

 

[Alec]

Gerrardasnails:al7478:compared, and im really confused. the summary of th e576 review says "some hd audio support", but then it says "no" by the hd audio formats listed...Thats what i meant in my OP when i said are hd audio formats either supported or not supported... No, the 606 decodes on board, the lower Onkyos don't.

Cheers. So, the advantage of the 606 is that, should he upgrade the player to one that doesnt decode onboard, itd still be ok (tho i dont understand why an upgraded player may not decode onboard, but still. same reason there is a £600 soundcard out there that doesnt actually give any sound, i guess...yes, im looking at you, Lynx!

).