Help needed to find missing detail! System in need of something, just not sure what....

[admin_exported]

System:
Roksan Kandy L MkIII amp (newest addition)
Arcam CD73
Rega P3/24 with Goldring 1042, TT PSU, Ringmat and Origin wire upgrade.
Partington Dreadnoughts
Quad 12L
QED Siver Anniversary Bi-wire
Atlas Equator interconnect from CD to Amp
Gotham GAC-1 (eh) from Squeezebox to Amp
All on a Soundstyle Finewood rack and Rega Wall mount turntable shelf.

Room:
8m x 12m with speakers 6 m apart.

Problem:
Hello. I upgraded to the Roksan from a Rega Brio 3 recently hoping for more 'oomph' and got it. But there is just a lack of 'detail' as if listening through a fine curtain with all the instruments crowded together, if that makes sense. I thought that floor standers may resolve my issue but my room is not that large. The problem is most noticeable on the Squeezebox and CD. I want something more 'in your face' with better seperation and soundstage but retaining a high level of detail. Bass is important but not at the expense of detail.

Do I play around with speaker positioning? Currently they are 14" from rear and 10" from side wall. Or are there any other suggestions forum users can offer me?

Any advice appreciated. Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

Was the last amp also shrouded, or is this a new problem?

 

[JoelSim]

I think it's probably the speakers.

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

The last amp also suffered from it but in a different way. The Brio seemed to lack some get up and go and the same issues were there, but was otherwise excellent. Now with the Roksan there is plenty of extra power and 'oomph' but unless I can improve the soundstage and detail it seems to have been a bit of a waste of an upgrade.

 

[matengawhat]

your speeakers in my opinion are to far apart to create a proper soundstage from such small boxes - i have the 12l2s and found they are very particular on positioning a lot more so than most speakers i've owned. and was really rewarding to play around with them - mine now sit at about 2ms apart and about 30 cm from a rear wall

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, I got the room measurements completely wrong. The room is 3m x 4m with the speakers 3m apart on the longest wall.

 

[Anonymous]

It is the speakers where the solution is.
Firstly are you happy with the balance and tone of the music from them?
If so by upgrading the crossovers, fitting Clarity Caps will give you 'high end' detail and clarity, lifting what sounds like a heavy curtain from in front of them. Around £50 cost. Its involves getting the soldering iron out and exchanging the caps over, quite easy to do.

Hope this helps

 

[Anonymous]

trevor79: Clarity Caps . Around £50 cost.

ouch! lol

Im not sure that buying the very very best is quite called for. Are you firmiliar with his crossovers? As i would imagine some big yellows at about £7 each would be more than good enough. What ever you fit wont do much if there is no impedance equalisation though. Thats why i ask if you know the crossovers.

 

[a.g.]

Get shot of the CD player and buy something else.

 

[Anonymous]

thank you for your replies. I'm not sure my soldering skills are up to replacing capacitors but I do have approx £500 to throw (not away) at the problem. As the problem seems to be with all sources (bar Rega) maybe it is the speakers as mentioned. How about trying some others, perhaps second user ones?

Ideas please?

Regards.

 

[Anonymous]

a.g.:Get shot of the CD player and buy something else.
That's where I put my money. Get something that is able to provide the separation you're looking for. I'd recommend the Musical Fidelity X Ray v8 going for about £400-£500 new or the Arcam CD192 for about £400 from Lintone Audio. Clearly this is just an opinion so ideally you'd want to test it first. The Quad speakers are very good.

 

[Anonymous]

The problem lies with your source, in my opinion - the cd player. Get rid of it and go for a Rega Apollo or a Cyrus CD6sv and you will hear the difference. Everything else in your system is fine. If you value detail resolution, Cyrus is your best bet (IMO).

I had the Roksan Kandy LIII and the Rega Apollo until a few weeks ago and they are a good pair. Both components mirror each other well and make good companions.

These were also the recommended pairing by WHF for a mid-range system, until the new Cyrus 6SE came along.

 

[JoelSim]

EvilWolf:
The problem lies with your source, in my opinion - the cd player. Get rid of it and go for a Rega Apollo or a Cyrus CD6sv and you will hear the difference. Everything else in your system is fine. If you value detail resolution, Cyrus is your best bet (IMO).

I had the Roksan Kandy LIII and the Rega Apollo until a few weeks ago and they are a good pair. Both components mirror each other well and make good companions.

Theseÿwere also the recommended pairing by WHF for a mid-range system, until the new Cyrus 6SE came along.

The Apollo (from experience) and especially the Cyrus (from reviews) above will be better than the CD73 for detail et al, although when you mention that you also have the problem on your squeezebox it would suggest that the speakers aren't working well in tandem with the rest of your set-up. Why don't you try to borrow some different ones from your dealer for a couple of days?

ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Add a DAC. £500 will buy you detail.

 

[Anonymous]

Well that's all components covered then. Bet you're glad you asked ;-)

 

[batonwielder]

That's funny. I just "downgraded" from Roksan Kandy to Rega Brio 3. The Rega lacks that extra reserve of power but sounds more dynamic than Roksan ever was for some reason. For sure, the Brio is much more upfront if that's what you were looking for.

ÿAnyways, the Quad 12L seems to be the culprit here. The 12L's to me have always sounded thin and veiled albeit bright. Try some Epos or Rega speakers.

ÿAlso, the Arcam is a bit on the laid back side. It's all about synergy, and I don't think those components go well together.ÿ

 

[crusaderlord]

To read through the issue is more pronounced with the squeezebox would lead me to suggest that the cd player shouldnt be the first thing you look to change. I would also look at the speakers.

A CD upgrade may be nice long term but wont solve the current issue you have with all sources. The CD73 is a good players and i thought on a par with the Rega Apollo when i auditioned, albeit with a slightly warmer approach.

 

[Anonymous]

Thank you all for your varied input, it has provided me with plenty to consider. I have considered many remedies including a Roksan Power Amp to bi-amp; new floor standing speakers such as the R3s (but they do not bi-wire) and even tried my Rega Brio again, but that did not help at all. I have repositioned the speakers which has helped a little but I can't help think a change in speakers may be the way forward.

 

[up the music]

Jsut to add to your options and confuse you further how about adding a Beresford DAC for your Squeezebox, then see what it does for CD reproduction. Yes, experiment with speaker positioning, and room treatment too. Then decide whether to spend your remaining budget on CD or speakers.
Lee

 

[drummerman]

gowch:Thank you all for your varied input, it has provided me with plenty to consider. I have considered many remedies including a Roksan Power Amp to bi-amp; new floor standing speakers such as the R3s (but they do not bi-wire) and even tried my Rega Brio again, but that did not help at all. I have repositioned the speakers which has helped a little but I can't help think a change in speakers may be the way forward.

You can chop and change but from what I've read this is not a problem of one component not matching. IMO you've reached a ceiling with everything you have ie. whatever you change, the others will hold the system back to an extend that even if you buy a vastly better part, it wont show what it can do, whether this is a player, amp or speaker. If its worth anything, I think the brio is a great little amplifier though it has clear limitations, as does the rest of your system.

You should go to a good dealer and listen to different systems. Even if you can't afford to buy everything at least it'll give you some idea of whats possible.

Personally, everything you've said makes me think that AVI's ADM9.1 may be the solution. Absolutely superb. Let me know if you need more info. Good luck.

 

[Anonymous]

Go and borrow a pair of Monitor Audio GS10's, then go looking for a cheap pair on ebay I think they retail for £800 but there is a lot of detail in the gold series I think they might b exactly what you're after. They'd sit well with your excellent stands too.

 

[a.g.]

crusaderlord:To read through the issue is more pronounced with the squeezebox would lead me to suggest that the cd player shouldnt be the first thing you look to change.

It all depends what he's playing on the Squeezebox. 128kbps MP3s will sound lacking no matter what you play them through.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your input everyone. I often read these threads and wonder how it all ended, so to bring mine to some kind of conclusion I thought I would let you know what I did next.

Speakers
As the problem seemed to be across all formats I tried auditioning various speakers to see what difference there was. After trying various makes/models, some of which were mentioned here, I settled on the ones which gave me the 'wow that's amazing' factor. These are Totem Rainmaker and the difference in my set up is startling. The soundstage really opened up and I was hearing things I had never heard before. I tried my Quads in my friends system and they sounded equally amazing in his system but not in mine. I did not think the differences a speaker can make to a certain system would be that pronounced but it was.

Squeezebox
I have now been ripping to flac format as this is meant to be better than mp3 but to be honest I cannot hear that much difference. The Squeezebox sounds pretty much as dull as before which is why I think I need a DAC. I like what the SB does so do not want to lose it.

CD
Whilst demoing speakers I also tried different CD players and when I heard the Musical Fidelity X-Ray V8 CD and Triple X PSU I was again blown away by the difference between that and my Arcam. So I ordered one of these too as it fitted so well with my Roksan and Totems.

The moral
There must be one but I'm not sure what it is. Maybe my wife will have one when she realises how much exactly we have spent, although all three items together were sub £800.

So, other than the Squeezebox not sounding right, and less so when compared to CD, I am now enjoying my music all over again, as if for the first time. When my Rega arm comes back from its Origin re-wire I look forward to testing my vinyl as well.

 

[Anonymous]

Why don't you add a DAC to the squeezebox if you are not happy with the sound. Just take a coax or optical out of the Squeeze into a DAC such as the Beresford...

 

[batonwielder]

I'm glad your system has found its groove. I knew those Quads weren't a good match for your system. Totem makes some amazing speakers. I can totally see the synergy between Musical Fidelity, Roksan, and Totem.

Just give them about a month to break in and play with placements in the meantime. Enjoy!