Help needed for turntable newbeie

[lindsayt]

I bought my first turntable 30 years ago.

Now, CJSF, will you please answer my question? How many 2nd hand turntables have you bought?

Your answer to this question is highly relevent to the posts you have made in this thread. Unlike your question on how long I have been in hi-fi.

 

[CJSF]

I bought my first turntable 30 years ago.

Now, CJSF, will you please answer my question? How many 2nd hand turntables have you bought?

Your answer to this question is highly relevent to the posts you have made in this thread. Unlike your question on how long I have been in hi-fi.

I have personaly never needed to buy used, seen plenty though, seen a lot of grief too, read a lot of wow on line as well. Rebuilt a few, like the one I have now, o'yes this one is ex dem, does that count? :? The OP has no idea what he is doing, get first foot on lader, get experiance, then he can venture into the wold of used TT 'with confidence' . . . if he wishes.

One day he will have as much experiance as you.

Dont bother to answer lindsayt cos I aint getting into any argument, let the OP decide whats best for him.

CJS

 

[lindsayt]

So, CJSF, you said "Without experiance you are heading into a mine field in the second hand market". But you have no first hand experience of buying a 2nd hand turntable yourself. You are advising the OP not to try something that you have never tried yourself.

My Grandma once advised me not to go on holiday to Spain, even though she had never been herself.

 

[Gravenhurst]

1

 

[Gravenhurst]

Here's a few to look out for at various price points:

Pioneer PL71 or if you're extremely lucky a P10 or P3 or P3a

Technics SP10 or 1200 or 1210

Trio / Kenwood KD990 or L07D

JVC QLY7 plus various other QL models

Yamaha GT2000

Denon DP100

Sony PSX6750 or PSX9 if you're very lucky

Marantz TT1000

Aiwa LP3000

Sanyo TP1000

Hitachi HT860

Luxman PD444

Onkyo PX100M

Sansui SR929

Nakamichi TX1000

EMT 948

Revox B790 or B795

Lenco various models

Garrard 301 or 401

Thorens TD124

Rekokut

Commonwealth

Haha thats a hell of a short list

If i was to go down this route could you narrow down the list a bit and give me a few of the ones you think are the best and are also really upgradable, useable with the better sounding arms and cartridges?

Is ebay the best place to go shopping for vintage TTs or are there other places?

I assume if i bought a used one it would already be set up correctly and if i upgraded the arm/cartridge the dealer would do this for me anyway?

Im not definatley going down this route but certainly givng it some thought

Thanks for your help

 

[andyjm]

I’m currently upgrading my speakers and amp and thinking of trying vinyl as my source as I’ve heard it gives the best sound quality.

Rather depends what you mean by quality. There are people who prefer the sound of LPs to CD, but from a technical perspective, CDs wipe the floor with LPs. In every measurement, THD, frequency response, SNR, channel separation, CDs are better.

Unfortunately, rather than use the medium to its full capability, CDs generally have the music mangled in the mastering process before it ever gets to the CD. LPs seem to be treated with a kinder touch. A properly mastered CD in a good player can sound remarkable.

Don't let me put you off LPs, it was only recently that I got rid of my old Rega Planar 3. Don't think however that LPs are doing a better job of reproducing music than CDs, they are not - but LPs may certainly sound better.

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Here's a few to look out for at various price points:

Pioneer PL71 or if you're extremely lucky a P10 or P3 or P3a

Technics SP10 or 1200 or 1210

Trio / Kenwood KD990 or L07D

JVC QLY7 plus various other QL models

Yamaha GT2000

Denon DP100

Sony PSX6750 or PSX9 if you're very lucky

Marantz TT1000

Aiwa LP3000

Sanyo TP1000

Hitachi HT860

Luxman PD444

Onkyo PX100M

Sansui SR929

Nakamichi TX1000

EMT 948

Revox B790 or B795

Lenco various models

Garrard 301 or 401

Thorens TD124

Rekokut

Commonwealth

This list is just the tip of the iceberg. There are loads of good turntables waiting to be discovered.

Most 2nd hand turntables come with an arm and cartridge already fitted. All you need to do is place them on a flat surface when you get home and plug them in to power and a phono amp or pre-amp or integrated amp with a phono section suitable for your cartridge. Pay cash on collection and make sure it's fully working before completing the transaction. In my experience most sellers of 2nd hand hi-fi are honest. Turntables are simple devices that lead an easy life. It's not like buying a 2nd hand car where there are hundreds of different things that can and will go wrong.

No offence, but that list is a bit unrealistic. I only know of Commonwealth because they made broadcast decks in Oz, don't think you'd find them here. The EMCs again are broadcast decks and you're unlikely to find them except at stellar prices. Same goes for the Garrard and the Thorens TD 124, which also has the disadvantage it can't take MC cartridges. If you can find a decent SP10 for reasonable money then you're not only lucky but will be able to sell it for a profit. The Revox are linear trackers which require a special kit if you want to change the cartridge. There are lots of others in your list which are as rare as hens teeth and command top dollarfor what they are.

Nothing wrong with advising second hand, but something like the Technics SL1200 or 1210, assuming a non-DJ one, or belt drives like the Thorens TD 160 or 150, Ariston, Linn, Systemdek etc are robust decks that perform well and are easy to find. There's also a stack of info about them on the web, including the manuals.

Me, I'd go new, something like the Clearaudio Concept, and get the dealer to set it up, after which you can forget about fiddling until the day comes when you need to change the cartridge. It'll also sound as good if not better than most of the decks mentioned in that list.

 

[stevebrock]

Without experiance you are heading into a mine field in the second hand market. 'Alears' is right, dealer setup decent TT, is the way to go, with that budget I'd be looking at the new Rega RP6, with somthing like a Dynovector 10x5 high out put MC cartridge, dont bother with the Rega cartridges, more potential grief. The Dynavector plays into a standard MM input on an amp. Quality sound, no tears, upgradable, tradeinable, reselable . . . the basis of a happy start in the enjoyment of vinyl.

CJSF

+1

To the OP, a year ago I never had any vinyl, got a used £100 RP1 and was hooked, soon got an RP3/Elys2 - however I got a cosmetic 2nds RP6 recently with Exact crtrdige and absolutely love it.

Really think you should get an RP3, (or howabout the anniversary RP3 called the RP40) easy to set up & sounds great! If you want to spend more than an RP6/Exact or Dynavector 10x5 would be a superb choice with lots of upgrade optioins if you feel like tweaking.

The Rega tables require little experience of setting up, vta etc etc and you can be playing your vinyl in minutes.

 

[drummerman]

... I would imagine it will probably be the cartridge thats going to make the biggest sound difference?

Its the combination of everything that matters; Cartridge to arm to phono pre-amp. Motor/platter interface and the decoupling of external and internal vibration. The list is long but it is fun. Turntables are also eminently tweakable to suit your own taste, more so than many other components in the chain.

It is a 'hands on' media, not convenient, costly and at times frustrating but to me, it has a charm, involvement and sound that, if you get it right, is difficult to replicate elsewhere.

regards

 

[ifor]

I bought a second hand turntable recently, which is not on the short list and I can recommend it very highly to a TT newbie, I bought a second hand Technics SL-7 off eBay and had it serviced by someone (Vantage Audio) who knows them well. The beauty of this TT is that it's completely automatic and sounds exceedingly good.

 

[jerry klinger]

Gravenhurst asked the q ' What do you get for more money? Do more expensive turntables come with features that I should be looking for?'

Basically with good turntables you're paying for engineering to solve a physical problem, rather than gadgets and gizmos. Companies like Rega have 40 years' experience designing and use advanced materials to make a turntable/arm combination.

If you're dipping your toe in the water, I wouldn't necessarily splash out on a new one but find a nice-looking Rega P3 from the past 10 years and get a new cartridge fitted, then buy the new Rega Fono MM which is £198 and will sound better than most phono stages in amplifiers (where they have one).

If you have £500 odd to spend you can't go wrong with the latest RP3.

 

[CJSF]

So, CJSF, you said "Without experiance you are heading into a mine field in the second hand market". But you have no first hand experience of buying a 2nd hand turntable yourself. You are advising the OP not to try something that you have never tried yourself.

My Grandma once advised me not to go on holiday to Spain, even though she had never been herself.

As said, I will not get into an argument, work it out. I've been in and around the hifi business since 1980, my experiance says one occasionaly comes across narrow minded and bigoted know-it-alls looking for a fight, avoid them like the plague.

 

[Gravenhurst]

Ok Im now thinking of getting a really good TT as a start point and then upgrade the arm and cartridge later when i have more cash.

So im looking for a table thats going to be able to get the most out of the better arms and cartridges.

What do people think of these new TTs?
Roksan radius 5.2
Clearaudio concept
Michell gyrodeck

Or used how about a Thorens 150/160?

Thanks again

 

[stevebrock]

Ok Im now thinking of getting a really good TT as a start point and then upgrade the arm and cartridge later when i have more cash. So im looking for a table thats going to be able to get the most out of the better arms and cartridges. What do people think of these new TTs? Roksan radius 5.2 Clearaudio concept Michell gyrodeck Or used how about a Thorens 150/160? Thanks again

This is a not a dig at you!

But, by your own admission you have not tried vinyl, you have heard it is the best sounding source - I really honestly think you should look at the lower end of the market and actually see if you like vinyl - dont even think about arms & cartridges until you at least know if you like it - you may find you cant listen through the pops & crackles, are you commited to the care vinyl needs?

 

[Al ears]

Without experiance you are heading into a mine field in the second hand market. 'Alears' is right, dealer setup decent TT, is the way to go, with that budget I'd be looking at the new Rega RP6, with somthing like a Dynovector 10x5 high out put MC cartridge, dont bother with the Rega cartridges, more potential grief. The Dynavector plays into a standard MM input on an amp. Quality sound, no tears, upgradable, tradeinable, reselable . . . the basis of a happy start in the enjoyment of vinyl.

CJSF

Many thanks for reaffirming my thoughts CJSF. Quite like you suggestion of RP6 and certainly the Dynavector is supposed to be a good cartridge although, personally I have never got on with hi-output moving coils and would myself go for a very good moving magnet.

However I must add this is purely a personal liking.

The OP could do a lot worse than what you are suggesting.

Without prejudice.

Its simple realy Alears, the OP needs experiance, no hick ups. Rega TT/arm combination is proven, the Dynavector has been around for donkeys years and is still considered a quality product holding its own, it was my first proper cartridge back around 1980, in a 'Michell Focus One'.

A year or so down the line he may wish to upgrade, he will certainly know and understand more . . . a solid base will give hime the upgrade starting point, or, if happy, the quality of the TT/cartridge will still be pleasuring him . . . IMHO

CJSF

You been on that Horlicks again?

Not too sure what your point is here, but it sounds like that is just what I said.

 

[Al ears]

CJSF and alears, how many 2nd hand turntables have you bought?

At a rough count I have had about 12. Not all purchased - some given. Most of these were second-hand including my current one.

Hope this helps!

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Ok Im now thinking of getting a really good TT as a start point and then upgrade the arm and cartridge later when i have more cash. So im looking for a table thats going to be able to get the most out of the better arms and cartridges. What do people think of these new TTs? Roksan radius 5.2 Clearaudio concept Michell gyrodeck Or used how about a Thorens 150/160? Thanks again

This is a not a dig at you!

But, by your own admission you have not tried vinyl, you have heard it is the best sounding source - I really honestly think you should look at the lower end of the market and actually see if you like vinyl - dont even think about arms & cartridges until you at least know if you like it - you may find you cant listen through the pops & crackles, are you commited to the care vinyl needs?

That's kind of true, but bear in mind budget turntables are just that, they don't compare ith budget DACs or CD players at the same price, for example, which are generally of a much better standard. £1000 buys you into a good turntable which will be the equal of many a CD player, assuming a similar quality cartridge.

In other words, if you want to try vinyl, you can't do so cheaply. It is a flawed medium, but the benefits can transcend those flaws.

 

[Al ears]

Ok Im now thinking of getting a really good TT as a start point and then upgrade the arm and cartridge later when i have more cash. So im looking for a table thats going to be able to get the most out of the better arms and cartridges. What do people think of these new TTs? Roksan radius 5.2 Clearaudio concept Michell gyrodeck Or used how about a Thorens 150/160? Thanks again

The Michell does not normally come pre-fitted with an arm whereas the Roksan and Clearaudio do. It is, however, the better deck.

 

[stevebrock]

In other words, if you want to try vinyl, you can't do so cheaply. It is a flawed medium, but the benefits can transcend those flaws.

i dont agree! Yes you can!

An RP1 is a budget deck, albeit a very capable one which gave me enough enocuragement to invest in vinyl & TTs which I have done!

Yes it is a flawed medium just like CD but give me vinyl anyday over CD

 

[Gravenhurst]

This is a not a dig at you!

But, by your own admission you have not tried vinyl, you have heard it is the best sounding source - I really honestly think you should look at the lower end of the market and actually see if you like vinyl - dont even think about arms & cartridges until you at least know if you like it - you may find you cant listen through the pops & crackles, are you commited to the care vinyl needs?

Completely understand where you are coming from but if I try it and love it then I intend to use it as my main source so getting a good TT straight away is more cost effective than getting a cheaper one and then buying a better one later.

 

[CJSF]

Without experiance you are heading into a mine field in the second hand market. 'Alears' is right, dealer setup decent TT, is the way to go, with that budget I'd be looking at the new Rega RP6, with somthing like a Dynovector 10x5 high out put MC cartridge, dont bother with the Rega cartridges, more potential grief. The Dynavector plays into a standard MM input on an amp. Quality sound, no tears, upgradable, tradeinable, reselable . . . the basis of a happy start in the enjoyment of vinyl.

CJSF

Many thanks for reaffirming my thoughts CJSF. Quite like you suggestion of RP6 and certainly the Dynavector is supposed to be a good cartridge although, personally I have never got on with hi-output moving coils and would myself go for a very good moving magnet.

However I must add this is purely a personal liking.

The OP could do a lot worse than what you are suggesting.

Without prejudice.

Its simple realy Alears, the OP needs experiance, no hick ups. Rega TT/arm combination is proven, the Dynavector has been around for donkeys years and is still considered a quality product holding its own, it was my first proper cartridge back around 1980, in a 'Michell Focus One'.

A year or so down the line he may wish to upgrade, he will certainly know and understand more . . . a solid base will give hime the upgrade starting point, or, if happy, the quality of the TT/cartridge will still be pleasuring him . . . IMHO

CJSF

You been on that Horlicks again?

Not too sure what your point is here, but it sounds like that is just what I said.

Just agreeing with you mate, getting late it was and yes, I'd been on the Horlicks . . . waiting for my 'mug' right now

CJSF

 

[Al ears]

Right o' CJSF. I thought that was it but wasn't sure. I'm a cocoa man myself. Enjoy your mug.

 

[lindsayt]

CJSF and alears, how many 2nd hand turntables have you bought?

At a rough count I have had about 12. Not all purchased - some given. Most of these were second-hand including my current one. Hope this helps!

So, of these 12 second hand turntables, how many had faults that you didn't know about before you bought or were given them?

Also, with these 12 how did they compare sound quality wise against something like an equivalently priced Clearaudio available brand new from a dealer?

And can you please tell us what these 12 turntables were?

 

[lindsayt]

No offence, but that list is a bit unrealistic. I only know of Commonwealth because they made broadcast decks in Oz, don't think you'd find them here. The EMCs again are broadcast decks and you're unlikely to find them except at stellar prices. Same goes for the Garrard and the Thorens TD 124, which also has the disadvantage it can't take MC cartridges. If you can find a decent SP10 for reasonable money then you're not only lucky but will be able to sell it for a profit. The Revox are linear trackers which require a special kit if you want to change the cartridge. There are lots of others in your list which are as rare as hens teeth and command top dollarfor what they are.

Nothing wrong with advising second hand, but something like the Technics SL1200 or 1210, assuming a non-DJ one, or belt drives like the Thorens TD 160 or 150, Ariston, Linn, Systemdek etc are robust decks that perform well and are easy to find. There's also a stack of info about them on the web, including the manuals.

Me, I'd go new, something like the Clearaudio Concept, and get the dealer to set it up, after which you can forget about fiddling until the day comes when you need to change the cartridge. It'll also sound as good if not better than most of the decks mentioned in that list.

Last time I was looking to buy a turntable, EMT 948's were selling for about £1450 - sometimes more, sometimes less, but mostly at about that price. Admittedly EMT prices have hardened in the last couple of years, but there's still a reasonable chance of finding one for the OP's budget of £1500 - especially if he looks on German ebay. 948's also come with very good quality built in phono and linestage amplification. All you need is a volume control and a power amp to plug them into. They are as fuss free and turn-key a record player as you can get. And most importantly the sound quality is at least of the level of a £15k new LP12 SE or £15k new SME 20/12a Koetsu combination.

Thorens TD124's take MC cartidges. I don't know why you said they didn't?

You make a good point about SP10's and selling them for a profit. The 2nd hand market is a very imperfect one. You never know when you're going to spot something that you can get for well under market value. Something that also has a good chance of sounding better than what you already have. In these cases it makes a lot of sense to go ahead and buy them. If you keep them you've got a bargain. If you sell them, then you've had something that appreciated instead of something that depreciated. Any TT that you buy new from a dealers will depreciate.

The Revox. Anyone buying one of these could just keep the original cartridge. There's a very good chance it would still sound better than any combination you could buy new for the same price - assuming you bought the Revox at a reasonable price - which is what my advice is all about. If you ever want to change the cartridge, you don't need special tools. All you need is a an old record that you don't mind scratching and some plastic spacers, the sort of thing you could make from thin plastic strips available from any hobby shop.

I would never buy a Clearaudio Concept, nor recommend that anyone ever buys one - unless they can sell it on for a profit. They sound too dead and too boring.

 

[jerry klinger]

Ok Im now thinking of getting a really good TT as a start point and then upgrade the arm and cartridge later when i have more cash. So im looking for a table thats going to be able to get the most out of the better arms and cartridges. What do people think of these new TTs? Roksan radius 5.2 Clearaudio concept Michell gyrodeck Or used how about a Thorens 150/160? Thanks again

GET AN RP3 WITH A TTPSU !!! :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: