professorhat
Well-known member
I was more referring to my own sanity to be honest - I've been in too many of these discussions...
Professor out
Professor out
Eddy41:
Many of these papers published by people far higher educated than most hi-fi journalist
Yeah, we've just about mastered speech and writing (not necessarily both at once).
But seriously - we have both the education and integrity to understand what we see/hear and convey it; and crucially to stress how important it is that you all see/hear yourselves!
Many of these papers published by people far higher educated than most hi-fi journalist
Yeah, we've just about mastered speech and writing (not necessarily both at once).
But seriously - we have both the education and integrity to understand what we see/hear and convey it; and crucially to stress how important it is that you all see/hear yourselves!
Ginder:Why do people on here not like the Gadget Show??cos they dont show enough tvs , isnt that obvious ??
Clare Newsome:Eddy41:
Many of these papers published by people far higher educated than most hi-fi journalist
Yeah, we've just about mastered speech and writing (not necessarily both at once).
But seriously - we have both the education and integrity to understand what we see/hear and convey it; and crucially to stress how important it is that you all see/hear yourselves!
This was not a dig.
I'm trying to point out that these people, very highly educated in their field, open themselves to scuntiny, I am sure most jounalists are educated to a higher standard than myself.
I am also sure, that you too Clare work for people that on paper cary higher qualifications, I am a great believer in knowledge gained by experience over that by study only.
But you don't seem to challenge the status quo, why is this?
Don't put the onus on the reader buyer to see the difference, with all the pitfalls this encounters.
I just wish I'd studied Engish, spelling and graamar betterist.
Many of these papers published by people far higher educated than most hi-fi journalist
Yeah, we've just about mastered speech and writing (not necessarily both at once).
But seriously - we have both the education and integrity to understand what we see/hear and convey it; and crucially to stress how important it is that you all see/hear yourselves!
This was not a dig.
I'm trying to point out that these people, very highly educated in their field, open themselves to scuntiny, I am sure most jounalists are educated to a higher standard than myself.
I am also sure, that you too Clare work for people that on paper cary higher qualifications, I am a great believer in knowledge gained by experience over that by study only.
But you don't seem to challenge the status quo, why is this?
Don't put the onus on the reader buyer to see the difference, with all the pitfalls this encounters.
I just wish I'd studied Engish, spelling and graamar betterist.
Eddy41:
I am also sure, that you too Clare work for people that on paper cary highier qualifications, I am a great believer in knowledge gained by experience over that by study only.
Nope,I don't, but then - to paraphrase you - what have paper qualifications got to do with the price of fish?
Eddy41:
But you don't seem to chalenge the status quo, why is this?
We do, on many levels - all our reviews are based on performance per pound, judged by a team of reviewers working in dedicated testing facilities with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources, or dedication to finding the best-value products.
Eddy41:
Don't put the onus on the reader buyer to see the difference, with all the pitfalls this encounters.
Pitfalls? Experienced we may be, but NOTHING compares to your own eyes and ears. No-one should be afraid of trying kit for themselves.
I am also sure, that you too Clare work for people that on paper cary highier qualifications, I am a great believer in knowledge gained by experience over that by study only.
Nope,I don't, but then - to paraphrase you - what have paper qualifications got to do with the price of fish?
Eddy41:
But you don't seem to chalenge the status quo, why is this?
We do, on many levels - all our reviews are based on performance per pound, judged by a team of reviewers working in dedicated testing facilities with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources, or dedication to finding the best-value products.
Eddy41:
Don't put the onus on the reader buyer to see the difference, with all the pitfalls this encounters.
Pitfalls? Experienced we may be, but NOTHING compares to your own eyes and ears. No-one should be afraid of trying kit for themselves.
sonycentre
Well-known member
Ill second that clare,yes hdmi is "digital".But the way the cable is made/used can make or break a system.I noticed a big diffreance between a £10.00 cable and a £40.00 cable.lol and that is on my toshiba hd-dvd player the sound was more open and louder.and picture was giving me more background detail.I even done a blind test,Whilst at a customers house, tonight with a sony kdl46z5500 and sony bdps760 and sky hd box.these customers were blown away,i even used the free cable that sky provide with the hd box.the smile on their faces said it all.another very satisfied customer.
Clare Newsome:
I am also sure, that you too Clare work for people that on paper carry highier qualifications, I am a great believer in knowledge gained by experience over that by study only.
Nope,I don't, but then - to paraphrase you - what have paper qualifications got to do with the price of fish?
Eddy41:
But you don't seem to chalenge the status quo, why is this?
We do, on many levels - all our reviews are based on performance per pound, judged by a team of reviewers working in dedicated testing facilities with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources, or dedication to finding the best-value products.
Well you don't hide your light under a bushel Clare!
My last question then, with all these resources, what technical equipment do you use to test HDMI leads.
When not relying on 'eyes'.
This could then establish the scientific evaluation of picture changes.
In fact a light controlled room with a digital camera set to manual could easily assess saturation levels using a control colour board as a reference.
I am also sure, that you too Clare work for people that on paper carry highier qualifications, I am a great believer in knowledge gained by experience over that by study only.
Nope,I don't, but then - to paraphrase you - what have paper qualifications got to do with the price of fish?
Eddy41:
But you don't seem to chalenge the status quo, why is this?
We do, on many levels - all our reviews are based on performance per pound, judged by a team of reviewers working in dedicated testing facilities with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources, or dedication to finding the best-value products.
Well you don't hide your light under a bushel Clare!
My last question then, with all these resources, what technical equipment do you use to test HDMI leads.
When not relying on 'eyes'.
This could then establish the scientific evaluation of picture changes.
In fact a light controlled room with a digital camera set to manual could easily assess saturation levels using a control colour board as a reference.
bigboss
Moderator
There are 2 ways of testing: subjective & objective. Subjective testing is prone to bias & other elements like fatigue etc. because it depends on the tester's eyes (and assuming that the tester has a perfect 6/6 vision & no colour blindness). Objective testing is more scientific and produces consistent results, regardless of the tester.
There are a few objective tests online if you do a google search. They all say that there's no difference in picture & audio quality with different HDMI cables, cheap or expensive at shorter lengths (up to 4m). At longer lengths (10m or more), the cost of cable does not automatically translate to better quality, but it's better to stick with reputable manufacturers.
One of the objective testers used more than $200000 worth of equipment to objectively test the HDMI cables. They used a Digital Serial Analyzer, TDT/TDR Sampling Modules, Pulse Pattern Generator, Digital Serial Waveform Analysis Software, HDMI Test Fixture Calibration Kit, HDMI Test Fixture TPA-R adaptors, RF Coaxial test cables with SMA connectors, SMA 75-ohm Terminations, & GPIB/USB Interface. Every single step of the testing process is well explained.
There are a few objective tests online if you do a google search. They all say that there's no difference in picture & audio quality with different HDMI cables, cheap or expensive at shorter lengths (up to 4m). At longer lengths (10m or more), the cost of cable does not automatically translate to better quality, but it's better to stick with reputable manufacturers.
One of the objective testers used more than $200000 worth of equipment to objectively test the HDMI cables. They used a Digital Serial Analyzer, TDT/TDR Sampling Modules, Pulse Pattern Generator, Digital Serial Waveform Analysis Software, HDMI Test Fixture Calibration Kit, HDMI Test Fixture TPA-R adaptors, RF Coaxial test cables with SMA connectors, SMA 75-ohm Terminations, & GPIB/USB Interface. Every single step of the testing process is well explained.
bigboss:
One of the objective testers used more than $200000 worth of equipment to objectively test the HDMI cables. They used a Digital Serial Analyzer, TDT/TDR Sampling Modules, Pulse Pattern Generator, Digital Serial Waveform Analysis Software, HDMI Test Fixture Calibration Kit, HDMI Test Fixture TPA-R adaptors, RF Coaxial test cables with SMA connectors, SMA 75-ohm Terminations, & GPIB/USB Interface. Every single step of the testing process is well explained.
Interesting eh.
I'm sure that all technical tests on the cables will show no operation difference in their ability to transfer the signal.
But this doesn't quite tell people who believe they see a difference.
Analysis ( by measurement equipment ) of the display picture also shows now difference in image displayed.
You quoted many thousand of dollars/pounds worth of measure equipment use by another test house.
I'm still waiting for Clare to provide what WHFSV use to measure the cables and displayed image differences .
She has replied quickly to my other posts, maybe due to the time now, and that she may not hold all the test equipment in her head, she may have to wait until Monday to ask exactly what test equipment they use.
I look forward to the comprehensive ( whom 'resources no one else has' ) list of measurement test equipment that WHFSV use.
Over to you Clare.
One of the objective testers used more than $200000 worth of equipment to objectively test the HDMI cables. They used a Digital Serial Analyzer, TDT/TDR Sampling Modules, Pulse Pattern Generator, Digital Serial Waveform Analysis Software, HDMI Test Fixture Calibration Kit, HDMI Test Fixture TPA-R adaptors, RF Coaxial test cables with SMA connectors, SMA 75-ohm Terminations, & GPIB/USB Interface. Every single step of the testing process is well explained.
Interesting eh.
I'm sure that all technical tests on the cables will show no operation difference in their ability to transfer the signal.
But this doesn't quite tell people who believe they see a difference.
Analysis ( by measurement equipment ) of the display picture also shows now difference in image displayed.
You quoted many thousand of dollars/pounds worth of measure equipment use by another test house.
I'm still waiting for Clare to provide what WHFSV use to measure the cables and displayed image differences .
She has replied quickly to my other posts, maybe due to the time now, and that she may not hold all the test equipment in her head, she may have to wait until Monday to ask exactly what test equipment they use.
I look forward to the comprehensive ( whom 'resources no one else has' ) list of measurement test equipment that WHFSV use.
Over to you Clare.
You get me instead. I think Clare has already answered your question. Having repeatedly had it demonstrated to us that there is little correlation between measured results and the performance of a product under real world listening and/or viewing conditions, we don't measure.
It's a conscious decision - within that budget Clare mentions we could easily have splurged a large amount on lab test gear, but successive reader surveys have demonstrated that out readers don't want to see pages of charts and figures, so the investment would have been wasted.
If you want to watch other magazines tie themselves in knots when something doesn't look/sound how the measurements say it should, help yourself - gawd knows they need the readers...
It's a conscious decision - within that budget Clare mentions we could easily have splurged a large amount on lab test gear, but successive reader surveys have demonstrated that out readers don't want to see pages of charts and figures, so the investment would have been wasted.
If you want to watch other magazines tie themselves in knots when something doesn't look/sound how the measurements say it should, help yourself - gawd knows they need the readers...
bigboss
Moderator
All the objective evidence, plus my own subjective testing has not shown any difference between HDMI cables I own. I have 3 brands, one worth £60 (QED performance), one worth £40 & one worth £4.89.
when i bought my first hdtv back in march , the salesman tried everything he could think of to get me to buy a 100euro hdmi lead , monster i think , i dont know if it was worth it , i doubt it , but id say he was in for a nice commission if i had bought it , which i didnt , my guess is the quality of them is much the same , salespeople put a bit of doubt in peoples minds and try to bump up their pay packet ...
Andrew Everard:
You get me instead. I think Clare has already answered your question. Having repeatedly had it demonstrated to us that there is little correlation between measured results and the performance of a product under real world listening and/or viewing conditions, we don't measure.
It's a conscious decision - within that budget Clare mentions we could easily have splurged a large amount on lab test gear, but successive reader surveys have demonstrated that out readers don't want to see pages of charts and figures, so the investment would have been wasted.
If you want to watch other magazines tie themselves in knots when something doesn't look/sound how the measurements say it should, help yourself - gawd knows they need the readers...
Sorry Andrew that just doesn't wash.
Clare said ' We do, on many levels - all our reviews are based on performance per pound, judged by a team of reviewers working in dedicated testing facilities with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources, or dedication to finding the best-value products.'
Please share with us what comprehensive test equipment WHFSV use to objectively measure HDMI cable transfer performace and any differences to picture quality displayed?
Its a very simple question that doesn't need a clever answer.
Ed.
You get me instead. I think Clare has already answered your question. Having repeatedly had it demonstrated to us that there is little correlation between measured results and the performance of a product under real world listening and/or viewing conditions, we don't measure.
It's a conscious decision - within that budget Clare mentions we could easily have splurged a large amount on lab test gear, but successive reader surveys have demonstrated that out readers don't want to see pages of charts and figures, so the investment would have been wasted.
If you want to watch other magazines tie themselves in knots when something doesn't look/sound how the measurements say it should, help yourself - gawd knows they need the readers...
Sorry Andrew that just doesn't wash.
Clare said ' We do, on many levels - all our reviews are based on performance per pound, judged by a team of reviewers working in dedicated testing facilities with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources, or dedication to finding the best-value products.'
Please share with us what comprehensive test equipment WHFSV use to objectively measure HDMI cable transfer performace and any differences to picture quality displayed?
Its a very simple question that doesn't need a clever answer.
Ed.
It wasn't a clever answer.
Clare said 'a host of comparative equipment', which you chose to interpret as 'comprehensive test equipment' for some reason.
I was merely clarifying.
Clare said 'a host of comparative equipment', which you chose to interpret as 'comprehensive test equipment' for some reason.
I was merely clarifying.
Andrew Everard:
It wasn't a clever answer. Clare said 'a host of comparative equipment', which you chose to interpret as 'comprehensive test equipment' for some reason.
It's not difficult...
What comparative equipment?
That's not difficult either...come on Andrew!
It wasn't a clever answer. Clare said 'a host of comparative equipment', which you chose to interpret as 'comprehensive test equipment' for some reason.
It's not difficult...
What comparative equipment?
That's not difficult either...come on Andrew!
We're testing a cable, we have a stack of the rival products to hand for comparative testing; we're testing TVs of a certain size, we have all the best TVs in that size and/or at that price to compare them with, and so on.
As I said, it's really not difficult...
As I said, it's really not difficult...
Andrew Everard:
We're testing a cable, we have a stack of the rival products to hand for comparative testing; we're testing TVs of a certain size, we have all the best TVs in that size and/or at that price to compare them with, and so on.
As I said, it's really not difficult...
So no objective test/measuring equipment.
You have no technical methodology to asses HDMI cables?
I rest my case.
We're testing a cable, we have a stack of the rival products to hand for comparative testing; we're testing TVs of a certain size, we have all the best TVs in that size and/or at that price to compare them with, and so on.
As I said, it's really not difficult...
So no objective test/measuring equipment.
You have no technical methodology to asses HDMI cables?
I rest my case.
Messiah
Well-known member
Eddy41:So no objective test/measuring equipment.
You have no technical methodology to asses HDMI cables?
I rest my case.
Not sure what asses have to do with it, but no, we don't have any objective test/measuring equipment. (Can you buy subjective measuring equipment?)
And neither did we ever say we did.
We prefer to rely on the experience of our reviewing team, often working under blind conditions with cable tests of this kind, and occasionally reader panels. As you'll be able to read in the January issue, out in three weeks.
And I don't see how anything I said in my answer to you contradicts anything on the How We Test page.
You have no technical methodology to asses HDMI cables?
I rest my case.
Not sure what asses have to do with it, but no, we don't have any objective test/measuring equipment. (Can you buy subjective measuring equipment?)
And neither did we ever say we did.
We prefer to rely on the experience of our reviewing team, often working under blind conditions with cable tests of this kind, and occasionally reader panels. As you'll be able to read in the January issue, out in three weeks.
And I don't see how anything I said in my answer to you contradicts anything on the How We Test page.
Andrew Everard:Eddy41:So no objective test/measuring equipment.
You have no technical methodology to asses HDMI cables?
I rest my case.
Not sure what asses have to do with it, but no, we don't have any objective test/measuring equipment. (Can you buy subjective measuring equipment?)
And neither did we ever say we did.
We prefer to rely on the experience of our reviewing team, often working under blind conditions with cable tests of this kind, and occasionally reader panels. As you'll be able to read in the January issue, out in three weeks.
And I don't see how anything I said in my answer to you contradicts anything on the How We Test page.
When in a hole stop digging.
After Care said 'with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources'
You admit to using subjective observations with no test eqipement to test date transfer or displayed picture differences
Sorry but that says it all, we have to rely on what someones eyes think they see.
A simple digital camera with reference colour charts could give objective observations.
Its how fruit is assessed for ripeness to pick.
If orchards can do it so could WHFSV.
Ed
You have no technical methodology to asses HDMI cables?
I rest my case.
Not sure what asses have to do with it, but no, we don't have any objective test/measuring equipment. (Can you buy subjective measuring equipment?)
And neither did we ever say we did.
We prefer to rely on the experience of our reviewing team, often working under blind conditions with cable tests of this kind, and occasionally reader panels. As you'll be able to read in the January issue, out in three weeks.
And I don't see how anything I said in my answer to you contradicts anything on the How We Test page.
When in a hole stop digging.
After Care said 'with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources'
You admit to using subjective observations with no test eqipement to test date transfer or displayed picture differences
Sorry but that says it all, we have to rely on what someones eyes think they see.
A simple digital camera with reference colour charts could give objective observations.
Its how fruit is assessed for ripeness to pick.
If orchards can do it so could WHFSV.
Ed
Eddy41:When in a hole stop digging.
After Care said 'with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources'
You admit to using subjective observations with no test eqipement to test date transfer or displayed picture differences
Sorry but that says it all, we have to rely on what someones eyes think they see.
A simple digital camera with reference colour charts could give objective observations.
Its how fruit is assessed for ripeness to pick.
If orchards can do it so could WHFSV.
Ed
And again, what's all this about aftercare, or indeed date transfer? And I am not sure my eyes are capable of thinking - AFAIK they leave that to my brain.
But as you said
Eddy41:When in a hole stop digging
and as we are clearly not the ones a hole, having always been totally open about our test methodody methodolgy methodology (got there in the end), I think we'll spare you any further embarrassment.
After Care said 'with a host of comparitive equipment to pitch against anything. No-one else has those resources'
You admit to using subjective observations with no test eqipement to test date transfer or displayed picture differences
Sorry but that says it all, we have to rely on what someones eyes think they see.
A simple digital camera with reference colour charts could give objective observations.
Its how fruit is assessed for ripeness to pick.
If orchards can do it so could WHFSV.
Ed
And again, what's all this about aftercare, or indeed date transfer? And I am not sure my eyes are capable of thinking - AFAIK they leave that to my brain.
But as you said
Eddy41:When in a hole stop digging
and as we are clearly not the ones a hole, having always been totally open about our test methodody methodolgy methodology (got there in the end), I think we'll spare you any further embarrassment.
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