Going 9.1, do I need discrete amplification?

[radiomike]

Hi, I am about to upgrade my amp and have used 7.1 for several years and am interested in going for 9.1 by adding in a couple of front height or width channels. I'd sort of settled on waiting for the new Denon 4311 amp which I understand has 9 channel amplification. However, I've been reading the review on this site of the Pioneer LX 83 and, in particular, the comments by JVC that it can provide the additional front channels via its 7 amps and the Dolby IIz processing. I do realise that there is little material in 7.1 and that this is normally produced via processing a 5.1 signal so I'm now wondering whether there is any real benefit getting an amp with 9 channels over, say, the Pioneer LX 83 which will give me 9 channels using Pro Logic IIz?

I'd really appreciate any comments about this as it now looks to me like I just as well look at the 7 channels amps rather than wait for the 9 channel Denon or others that are on the horizon.

 

[Anonymous]

9.1??? You must have a big room! I don't think I've ever seen any content that supports 9.1 audio. 7.1 audio DVDs are hard enough to find, I've just had a quick scan through some of my DVDs and the majority are only 5.1. Lord of The Rings is 6.1 and that seems to be the highest I have found from checking around 20 of what I would have thought, the most likely DVDs to have more than 5.1.

I think the idea of 9.1 is nice, but putting it into practice, I just don't think is going to work... The people responsible for producing the content don't anticipate people having 9.1 systems in their homes so I would personally save my money for something else...

 

[Anonymous]

9.1!! I was actually thinking of getting rid of 2 speakers and going down to 5.1. I have 2 systems in my house, 5.1 in the living room and 7.1 in the dedicated cinema. Both are using Monitor Audio radius HD speakers, The only difference is the living room has an Onkyo amp and the cinema has a Denon. I always feel the living room handles the surround sound for movies much better. I am therefore going to run the cinema at 5.1 for a while and see if it makes any difference. I like the idea of the height speakers and may try that to see if it gives good results

 

[radiomike]

I've had 7.1 for some time using Dolby Pro Logic IIx and enjoy the benefits of the additional rears. As I need to upgrade my amp I quite like the idea of adding in the additional front height/width speakers and assumed that the best route would therefore be a dedicated 9.1 amp. However, I was reading the review on this site for the Pioneer LX83 and the comments included a response from Pioneer that effectively stated that, as there are no sources for proper 9.1 material, there's no point in having 9 channels of amplification as the additional front speakers will only ever be sent sounds matrixed from the existing front channels. This seems to make sense to me but if this is true, why are other manufacturers bringing out amps with 9 discrete channels - is this just a marketing ploy or is there some real benefit? To add to my confusion, in response to Pioneer's comments, Andrew Everard said 'Fascinated to hear how a single amp channel can be used to send two different signals to two different speakers. Hmmm...' Hmmm indeed, so now I'm completely confused about the benefits, or otherwise, of a 9 channel amp over a 7 channel one that powers 9 speakers using Dolby IIz!

 

[DandyCobalt]

I got that explanation from Pioneer about the lx53/83 and 9.1 after the reviews about needing extra amps from Andrew (seems like he's wrong on this one). If you needed an extra amp for heights and pro logic IIz, why are there dedicated speaker outs for the heights, rather than just pre-outs? - I'm adding in two discrete black Boston Acoustics soundware satellites as front heights (2010 5-star award winners and, as my room is relatively small, these should blend in well with existing curtain fixings etc). Since buying the lx53, similar spec to the 83 (except power and THX Ultra?) I've been really impressed with the way that the 53 processes source audio and then distributes it - either stereo to its "extended stereo" and "stereo wide/focus" setting, or basic tv audio etc to Dolby PL IIx etc. I'm far more confident that the extra front heights with the lx53 will add to my viewing/listening pleasure through a 3-d audio effect, than any Hollywood financially-motivated protectionist 3-d visual upgrade where the family all have to wear facial contraptions to get any benefit!

 

[radiomike]

The extra amplification comments are really confusing as other reviews also state that 9.1 is only available with additional amps, so it's good to know that this isn't true. I'd be really interested in hearing your view about the soundfield when you've connected your Boston Acoustics as your experience to date seems similar to mine with the PL IIx processing. TV and films with 5.1 soundtracks really do benefit from the additional back/rear speakers in that the soundstage just sounds more convincing - it's all around whenever it should be, rather than sometimes seeming to come from a particular location. Still wondering however if there is any real benefit in having an amp with 9 discrete channels...

 

[DandyCobalt]

I should get the front height speakers on Monday - they've been on back-order for two weeks. Imo, 9 discrete channels is only useful if you've got source material in 9.1, I suppose. I get the feeling that, from an economic perspective, movie production seems to be focussing on 5.1, as that's what the bulk of punters will have, so any additional benefit will be from the amp in how it can matrix to the extra speakers? For music, there doesn't seem to be a great enthusiasm from the record industry (except perhaps LSO/classical) now for new releases in SACD/DVD-A, unless it's to get some extra pennies from Moody Blues rereleases to audiophiles.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm still a bit undecided on 7.1

with PLIIx for the 2 rear centres - I find with 2 channel TV sources it sounds great - but with quite a few movies, the rears sound too over active if that makes sense

sometimes find on my Pioneer the older "EX" post-processing or SX (Studio Surround) are less active and a bit more subtle

 

[DandyCobalt]

Just wired up two Kef eggs as front heights to make 9.1 directly from my lx53 (the MCACC detects them all automatically and sets them all up) - sound coming out fine through all using the Pro-Logic IIz setting, without an extra amp. I've not screwed them in to the walls up high, as waiting for the smaller boston acoustics, but definitely no need for extra amp to get the full complement of sounds.

 

[radiomike]

Have been looking around at the amps that are, or are about to come, on the market and there's a nice Onkyo NR 5008 as well as the Denon which has discrete 9 channels. Beginning to think that this is the way to go but will be interested to hear how your system sounds with the Boston speakers in place.

 

[Anonymous]

DandyCobalt:
Just wired up two Kef eggs as front heights to make 9.1 directly from my lx53 (the MCACC detects them all automatically and sets them all up) - sound coming out fine through all using the Pro-Logic IIz setting, without an extra amp. I've not screwed them in to the walls up high, as waiting for the smaller boston acoustics, but definitely no need for extra amp to get the full complement of sounds.

You can do 5.1 + heights or 7.1 + heights with an external amp etc. You just can't run 9.1 from the Pioneer internal amps. Is that correct?

 

[DandyCobalt]

No, you can run Dolby PLIIz direct from the 2020/LX53/83 to 9.1 setup. Pioneer Tech Support explain that they partly duplicate the signal from the front L/R channels so that the more "ambient" parts (rain, cicadas etc) also go to the front heights, without need for extra amp.

I've got 9.1 rigged up and working through my LX53 (so, yes it works! Honest!). I'd say that the effect is subtle - we've tried it with several Blu-rays so far, including Kick-Ass and The Dark Knight. You can't really distinguish the output from the front heights (Boston satellites) when sitting in the "sweet spot", unless you put your ear up to them (which is a good thing?) but the overall sound is very immersive (which is a great thing!).

 

[radiomike]

Finally got round to getting the Onkyo 5008 and am running it in 9.1 with the front height speakers (my room wouldn't take front wides). Agree with Dandy, the effect is subtle but definitely a worthy addition as it just seems to completely make individual speaker placements disappear (apart from the centre channel obviously). And Audyssey is very impressive too, my system has never sounded better.