Game changing kit.....

[MajorFubar]

Now for two undoubted game changers...

Ah! I was surprised no-one so far had mentioned those two!

I'd like to nominate the Cyrus 2 amplifier

...and the Ariston RD11

 

[chebby]

...and the Ariston RD11

Maybe (in the context of the Linn LP12 certainly) but you then have to go back to the Thorens TD150 (1965) and then Ed Villchur's AR XA (1962).

So I think the 'game changer' would be the orignal AR XA.

 

[CnoEvil]

I agree, and mine is still going strong as well. The reason it's not on the list, is down to the original Naim Nait.....and I didn't know which deserved it more.

Neither.

The big 'game changer' was the NAD 3020.

1.1 Million units sold (not including later derivations).

Yup, in many ways, that's why they were both left out and the Nad remained on my list.

 

[alchemist 1]

What about the tape cassette.

ALL those mixed tapes..............

 

[MajorFubar]

Maybe (in the context of the Linn LP12 certainly) but you then have to go back to the Thorens TD150 (1965) and then Ed Villchur's AR XA (1962).

So I think the 'game changer' would be the orignal AR XA.

Was going to mention the TD150 as it happens, but be it by luck / marketing / rare example of British patriotism / back-handed reviewers / right product, right time, the RD11/LP12 just seems to have stuck in public consciousness more.

 

[plastic penguin]

AR speakers I heard in Laskys many moons ago. Can't remember the model but they were very high end at the time. Seem to remember, though can't be sure, powered by a Sansui or a huge Marantz receiver. (circa 1977 I think).

 

[CnoEvil]

AR speakers I heard in Laskys many moons ago. Can't remember the model but they were very high end at the time. Seem to remember, though can't be sure, powered by a Sansui or a huge Marantz receiver. (circa 1977 I think).

I'm glad you've stopped groaning and decided to join in.

The idea of the thread was not meant to be yet another list of "what I like", but a discussion about which components should be considered genuine "landmark products," because they brought something different to the table ie. In terms of thinking, SQ, and/or innovation.

My original list was simply a "document for demolition" and a trigger for debate.....so any reasoning one can give behind any examples, will help make a stronger case.

 

[plastic penguin]

AR speakers I heard in Laskys many moons ago. Can't remember the model but they were very high end at the time. Seem to remember, though can't be sure, powered by a Sansui or a huge Marantz receiver. (circa 1977 I think).

I'm glad you've stopped groaning and decided to join in.

The idea of the thread was not meant to be yet another list of "what I like", but a discussion about which components should be considered genuine "landmark products," because they brought something different to the table ie. In terms of thinking, SQ, and/or innovation.

My original list was simply a "document for demolition" and a trigger for debate.....so any reasoning one can give behind any examples, will help make a stronger case.

I was just a little dismayed at the timing of the thread, not the thread itself. I was up to my armpits with cooking....

 

[steve_1979]

Does iTunes count?

Downloadable music files had already been done before but Apple's iTunes along with the original iPod was the first to make it work for the masses by making it simple and user friendly enough for non computer geeks to use.

 

[steve_1979]

Spotify is another game changer too but I'm not sure if it counts as a "component" so maybe it's out of the frame of reference for this thread.

 

[steve_1979]

My original list was simply a "document for demolition" and a trigger for debate.....so any reasoning one can give behind any examples, will help make a stronger case.

Apple iPod - See post above about iTunes.

AVI ADM9 - Makes true high end sound quality available at a lower price than ever before. Also putting the pre-amp and DAC in the speakers saves on the box count and costs for the buyer (done before I know but AVI are arguably the first to make it popular).

Genelec 8260A - The unique concentric midrange and tweeter driver design allows a level of clarity and stereo imaging better than other concentric speaker drivers by making the flush midrange driver part of the tweeters acoustic lense. Other concentric speaker drivers distort the tweeter sound by having a less than ideal shape and also by having the midrange driver part having an effect on the tweeters phase as it moves in and out. Have a read about the Genelec 8260A concentric speaker driver because they're a unique, interesting and clever design which works well.

Computer audio - Has made lossless hifi quality sources very cheap and very flexible.

Sony Walkman - It kicked off portable music listening.

Technics SL1200 - Thanks to it's good sound quality, high torque direct drive motor, cueing, effective resistance to vibration and bomb proof build quality it was the ideal tool for radio broadcasting and club DJ's alike.

 

[CnoEvil]

Does iTunes count?

Downloadable music files had already been done before but Apple's iTunes along with the original iPod was the first to make it work for the masses by making it simple and user friendly enough for non computer geeks to use.

I'm not sure it does, any more than the 78, the Stereo LP, the CD or Magnetic Tape....which are more "format", than kit.

 

[CnoEvil]

Genelec 8260A - The unique concentric midrange and tweeter driver design allows a level of clarity and stereo imaging better than other concentric speaker drivers by making the flush midrange driver part of the tweeters acoustic lense. Other concentric speaker drivers distort the tweeter sound by having a less than ideal shape and also by having the midrange driver part having an effect on the tweeters phase as it moves in and out. Have a read about the Genelec 8260A concentric speaker driver because they're a unique, interesting and clever design which works well.

IMO. The place on the list should be reserved for the first company do this.

Kef started doing it in 1988 (Uni-Q), but I think Tannoy have been promoting " true point source" for over 40 years. If anyone has been doing it longer, I'd like to know.

I'm not making any more "factual proclamations", unless I know for definite. :doh:

 

[steve_1979]

IMO. The place on the list should be reserved for the first company do this.

Kef started doing it in 1988 (Uni-Q), but I think Tannoy have been promoting " true point source" for over 40 years. If anyone has been doing it longer, I'd like to know.

I'm not making any more "factual proclamations", unless I know for definite. :doh:

I agree that Tannoy also deserve a place in this thread as they were the first to do concentric speaker drivers. But so far all concentric drivers have been flawed. Genelec (and to a lesser extent some of Kef's speakers) are the first to overcome the flaws inherent in concentric drivers. This combinded with Genelec's effective application of active speaker design and built in DSP makes the 8260A a game changer as far as clarity and stereo imaging are concerned (IMO ).

Quote from the 6moons review:

Besides the usually cited advantages for a coax (lower interference, point source dispersion, potentially superior group delay) there are obviously disadvantages too. Midrange cone travel modulates tweeter output for Doppler distortion and undesirable edge disturbances from surround, basket and mounting screws aren’t uncommon. Those will cause a certain ripple effect or response irregularities as the Finns admit.

Their solution for the first problem is basic. Restrict excursion of the midrange by crossing it out sooner. Genelec does so at 490Hz to have the 10-incher handle all bass and the lower midband. Sorting out the second issue required more brains. We’ve seen similar addresses from KEF whose Uni-Q dual-concentric sports a very shallow geometry to avoid jagged transitions whilst their baskets hide behind trim rings. Genelec skins this cat differently. They’ve moved the midrange surround to the inside for a perfectly seamless transition between midrange diaphragm and box and thus also tweeter. Due to the company’s trademark wave guide, the tweeter ‘sees’ a perfectly smooth clearly defined transition which supports its homogenous dispersion. In Genelec jargon that becomes a Minimum Diffraction Coaxial driver with Directivity Control Waveguide. MDC, DCW… the picture below says more than a thousand acronyms.

 

[CnoEvil]

I agree that Tannoy also deserve a place in this thread as they were the first to do concentric speaker drivers. But so far all concentric drivers have been flawed. Genelec (and to a lesser extent some of Kef's speakers) are the first to overcome the flaws inherent in concentric drivers. This combinded with Genelec's effective application of active speaker design and built in DSP makes the 8260A a game changer as far as clarity and stereo imaging are concerned (IMO ).

This opens another side to this debate ie. Should the places be solely reserved for the original innovators, or the companies that improved / popularized / commercialized it?.... Thinking of the likes of the LP12 here.

Also, to what extent should commercial success be taken into account?

 

[steve_1979]

This opens another side to this debate ie. Should the places be solely reserved for the original innovators, or the companies that improved / popularized / commercialized it?.... Thinking of the likes of the LP12 here.

Also, to what extent should commercial success be taken into account?

Interesting point. :?

Many so called 'game changers' aren't original concepts but rather an evolution and refinement of an existing design. The iPod and iTunes are a good example of this.

 

[CnoEvil]

Interesting point. :?

Many so called 'game changers' aren't original concepts but rather an evolution and refinement of an existing design. The iPod and iTunes are a good example of this.

This was never intended to be an easy debate with simple answers, but a chance to dust off those "Pickled New Year Brains" and apply some justifiable, logical thought.

In some ways, the less obvious choices may be the more correct ones.

 

[steve_1979]

Kef started doing it in 1988 (Uni-Q), but I think Tannoy have been promoting " true point source" for over 40 years. If anyone has been doing it longer, I'd like to know.

I've just received a message from Ashley James who was reading this thread (apologies to the mods if posting this is an infringement of forum rules).

"Concentric drivers first appeared in the thirties and probably from Altec Lansing in the States (Beatles were monitored on awful Altec 604's) or Telefunken in Germany from whom Tannoy (a PA company ) pinched the design from as war reparations in 1946."

 

[CnoEvil]

I've just received a message from Ashley James who was reading this thread (apologies to the mods if posting this is an infringement of forum rules).

"Concentric drivers first appeared in the thirties and probably from Altec Lansing in the States (Beatles were monitored on awful Altec 604's) or Telefunken in Germany from whom Tannoy (a PA company ) pinched the design from as war reparations in 1946."

Excellent. This is the sort of stuff that I was hoping would surface.

Little in hifi is what it seems.....as in many other areas, it's often about the best marketing, and what gets into folklore or public perception.

If I hadn't checked, I'd have said Kef were the first British company to make it widely available, but they were newcomers compared to Tannoy.......I wonder how many other people think the same?

Apparently a "true point source" is not as simple as having a dual concentric array, as explained here: http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/tannoy-concentric_e.html

 

[altruistic.lemon]

Make that Western Electric and 1933. I doubt that Tannoy pinched the design,

 

[Al ears]

I'd add on the Colorfly C4 Pro. It certainly changed the way I listen to music on the move and has recently spawned a whole new list of similar machines, from the likes of Astell & Kern et al.

 

[steve_1979]

Was the ATC midrange dome the first of its kind? Maybe that deserves a mention here.

 

[CnoEvil]

I'd add on the Colorfly C4 Pro. It certainly changed the way I listen to music on the move and has recently spawned a whole new list of similar machines, from the likes of Astell & Kern et al.

Game changing kit I've never heard of.......must be my age, and luddite status with all things technical. :doh:

 

[the record spot]

Back to Tannoy again - it seems the earliest Dual Concentric appeared circa 1947, according to this link:, which gives some history of the company and some of the product design-

http://www.hilberink.nl/codehans/tannoy52.htm

 

[matt49]

The Sonos ZP80/90: highly innovative MESH networking, and a GUI that was a doddle to use. This made high quality streaming a reality regardless of budget.

:cheers:

Matt