My NAD / B&W DM602 set up sounded great. My new kit of Rotel / B&W CM7 sounds a litte bright, dull, and non musical. I believe the issue is the speakers. I've tried several interconnects, speaker wire, moved speakers away from walls and it's still the same. All of that made a huge difference, but I still find it toned down at best. If I post some system specs, would anyone be able to decipher them and tell me where the weak point is? (or can you tell from my sig?). My DM602's could fill this same room better than the CM7's.
Flat and sometimes fatiguing
- Thread starter Don Jr
- Start date
jaxwired
Well-known member
Don, I really feel for you as I know how frustrating it can be. I owned the CM7s for a little more than a year and I really liked them, but I also found them to be a tad bright. Very detailed though. Your description of the problem does not make complete sense to me. Usually "bright" and "dull" are not describing the same system.
The first thing I would do if I was you, would be to swap the NAD equipment in for the Rotel kit to see if that helps. Then put the Rotel back and swap in the old DM602s. Since you still have your old stuff you can use it to help diagnose the issue. After you do these two swaps, you should know if the problem is more with the speakers or the electronics. I used the CM7s with NAD amps and never found them dull. My problem was mostly with getting the bass to sound full but not boomy. I could never find a balance between the port plugs in or out. But I still really enjoyed them and continue to feel they are very good speakers.
Please clarify what you mean by "toned down". What part of the frequency range is the problem?
The first thing I would do if I was you, would be to swap the NAD equipment in for the Rotel kit to see if that helps. Then put the Rotel back and swap in the old DM602s. Since you still have your old stuff you can use it to help diagnose the issue. After you do these two swaps, you should know if the problem is more with the speakers or the electronics. I used the CM7s with NAD amps and never found them dull. My problem was mostly with getting the bass to sound full but not boomy. I could never find a balance between the port plugs in or out. But I still really enjoyed them and continue to feel they are very good speakers.
Please clarify what you mean by "toned down". What part of the frequency range is the problem?
Thanks for the reply Jax. I think what I mean by that is that the Rotel in general sounds brighter than the NAD regardless of what source and speakers are connected. The NAD sounded warm to me and I guess I really liked that. I'm not getting the full bass that I was with the old kit. I have the bungs removed and the speakers about 18 inches from the wall. If I move them closer to the wall, I have to put the bungs in and then it just sounds the same. I'm bi-wired with Chord Rumour 4. If I play Talking Heads, they sound great. Carol King and Bob Dylan (yes, dull), sound fatiguing and not musical at all. They sounded great on the old kit.
I'm going to give the CM7's a run with the NAD on Sunday. That should give me a better idea of what's bothering me with this set up. I hope it's the speakers because that would be easier for me to replace. Not how I wanted to spend my winter. I waited 5 months to see if it was just me getting used to floorstanders. Maybe it is? Sorry I'm not better at describing this.
I'm going to give the CM7's a run with the NAD on Sunday. That should give me a better idea of what's bothering me with this set up. I hope it's the speakers because that would be easier for me to replace. Not how I wanted to spend my winter. I waited 5 months to see if it was just me getting used to floorstanders. Maybe it is? Sorry I'm not better at describing this.
jaxwired
Well-known member
Don, unfortunately, the problem might be both the electronics and the speakers. I'd say that B&W DMs and NAD are both considered warm, full sounding and Rotel and the B&W CMs both tend to be more lean and detailed sounding. If you like your old NAD amp with the CM7s, then I'd suggest keeping the CM7s and the Rotel preamp and just buying a NAD 272 power amp. They come up on audiogon all the time for like $300. The 272 is totally warm and full sounding.
You have probably already played with speaker position, but if you haven't, it's worth spending time moving the speakers arournd. Closer to a corner for more bass, etc... Room acoustics can make quite a bit of difference. If the room has lots of hard surfaces, like hardwood floors and windows, this can really affect the sound. This is probably not your problem though since you were happy with the old equipment.
I will say that your post is not new. It's very common for people to upgrade from a system they are happy with and end up less happy. Especially when you change everything like you did. The same thing happened to me. It took me a few more changes until I was really happy again.
If you do end up considering a speaker change, the good news is that CM7s will sell great. I sold mine on ebay because B&W appeals to the masses, not just the audio snobs. Also, if you go the speaker route, consider Dynaudio. I love the brand's full warm sound. Good luck...
You have probably already played with speaker position, but if you haven't, it's worth spending time moving the speakers arournd. Closer to a corner for more bass, etc... Room acoustics can make quite a bit of difference. If the room has lots of hard surfaces, like hardwood floors and windows, this can really affect the sound. This is probably not your problem though since you were happy with the old equipment.
I will say that your post is not new. It's very common for people to upgrade from a system they are happy with and end up less happy. Especially when you change everything like you did. The same thing happened to me. It took me a few more changes until I was really happy again.
If you do end up considering a speaker change, the good news is that CM7s will sell great. I sold mine on ebay because B&W appeals to the masses, not just the audio snobs. Also, if you go the speaker route, consider Dynaudio. I love the brand's full warm sound. Good luck...
The Rotel kit isn't lean but it can certainly sound bright if not matched with care. I used to match an RA03 amp with MA speakers and it just had too much at the very top end. From what you've described I would advise changing the amp.
I'd be inclined to sell the speakers and if you have the space, seek out the Q Acoustics 1050i, or book a demo and try the latest 2050. The former you can pick up in the UK for around £200-£250 if you shop around and the latter are the firm's new floorstander, so expect to pay around £330-£370. The 1050i should have the kind of sound you're looking for and work pretty well with the Rotel.
Expect to hear a big, old style, analogue kind of sound; excellent speaker for the money, but there is a lot of it. If you have the space though, it could be a cost-effective answer to your problem. With the CM7s sold, you might even end up in slight profit.
Don't worry about future upgrades either, the speakers will happily sit alongside the likes of a Leema Pulse by all accounts, so you should do well out of them for a while yet.
Expect to hear a big, old style, analogue kind of sound; excellent speaker for the money, but there is a lot of it. If you have the space though, it could be a cost-effective answer to your problem. With the CM7s sold, you might even end up in slight profit.
Don't worry about future upgrades either, the speakers will happily sit alongside the likes of a Leema Pulse by all accounts, so you should do well out of them for a while yet.
You might have hit the nail right on the head igglebert. I'm playing the CM7's through the NAD and I'm floored at the difference. Why does my $700 (I'm in th U.S.) 80 watt NAD sound like it could move my $2600 worth of Rotel 200 watt amp and preamp out of the way? I wish the wife could hear this. She's off to work for a couple of hours. Now I'm going to put the Rotel CDP back in and see what happens. Man, this NAD sound is what I was missing. What other manufacturers make a kit with this warm punchy sound like the NAD has? Why at around the 10 O' clock mark on the volume dial does the 80 watt NAD fill my room with sound and the 200 watt Rotel at the same position does not do the job as well?
Jaxwired. This is why I don't like the idea of being loyal to a dealer, as one poster had questioned. I bought this Rotel kit from a friend who gave me an amazing deal on it. My local NAD shop went under and another took over the line, and they don't care about it because they're so into car and HT installations. I think I might have to get rid of the Rotel equipment and keep the speakers for awhile. I can't handle the thought of replacing everything right now since I spent so much money on this (so much for my budget anyhow)
If you have had a NAD system for a number of years then like myself you may find many other brands dissappointing. NAD has a warmish sound and more importantly a fuller bass presentation - not necessarily the most detailed but one you love if you are used to it.
When my own NAD's wore out and required replacing i went through a number of brands i wasnt happy with either by demo or buying (i bought a Cambridge Audio system and took it back a week later).
Eventually i found Arcam which whilst not being exactly like NAD is on the warmer side and is certainly a smoother presented system than many popular favourites like Marantz or Cyrus. Depending on the music you like, it may suit but then a number of people prefer the lean and bright sound and dont rate Arcam at all.
I even re purchased a 2nd hand NAD C320BEE for my 2nd system in my small office as i think NAD offer great value for money and punch high above their cost. You could look at buying one of the more expensive newer NAD amplifiers which do get good reviews.
Sometimes changing everything does not make a better system.
When my own NAD's wore out and required replacing i went through a number of brands i wasnt happy with either by demo or buying (i bought a Cambridge Audio system and took it back a week later).
Eventually i found Arcam which whilst not being exactly like NAD is on the warmer side and is certainly a smoother presented system than many popular favourites like Marantz or Cyrus. Depending on the music you like, it may suit but then a number of people prefer the lean and bright sound and dont rate Arcam at all.
I even re purchased a 2nd hand NAD C320BEE for my 2nd system in my small office as i think NAD offer great value for money and punch high above their cost. You could look at buying one of the more expensive newer NAD amplifiers which do get good reviews.
Sometimes changing everything does not make a better system.
Thanks for the reply crusaderlord. I believe what you said is exactly what has happened to me. I can't seem to let go of my love for that warm NAD sound. As you said and I've just noticed this morning, is that although the bass is not as detailed, it's there and the sound is smoother, where it isn't with the Rotel. I listen to a variety of music, anything from Bob Dylan, Carole King, The Be Good Tanyas, to Howlin' Wolf, Muddy Waters, and Sonny Boy Williams. I love blues standards as well as the music they inspired.
I do not like lean and bright. That may lend itself to classical at low volumes, but not the music that I listen to. I do enjoy some classical now and then, but not enough to justify this set up.
Weren't some people on WHF having issues with one of the NAD amps?
I do not like lean and bright. That may lend itself to classical at low volumes, but not the music that I listen to. I do enjoy some classical now and then, but not enough to justify this set up.
Weren't some people on WHF having issues with one of the NAD amps?
I put the Rotel CDP back into the mix with the NAD integrated and it seems to warm it up a little more and the highs are not quite as high. I like the sound a lot. There's no doubt in my mind now that the Rotel amp is the culprit. Is there any other equipment besides Arcam and NAD that anyone can think of that has more of a NAD characteristic to it? Should I still be considering sepearates?
Don Jr:I put the Rotel CDP back into the mix with the NAD integrated and it seems to warm it up a little more and the highs are not quite as high. I like the sound a lot. There's no doubt in my mind now that the Rotel amp is the culprit. Is there any other equipment besides Arcam and NAD that anyone can think of that has more of a NAD characteristic to it? Should I still be considering sepearates?
I think Rega probably. Rega is described as very analogue sounding. I just got a Saturn recently and it has a very warm and musical sound. Frankly, I couldn't believe a CD player could make such a difference. It was a big step up from what I had before (Marantz and Arcam universal players). The more pronounced bass is what really jumps out at me with the Saturn, it's the first thing I notice.
I'm sure there are lots of other brands too. One of the best speakers I have ever heard are the PMC TB2i. I wouldn't say they are overly warm, but with the new SEAS tweeter they employ the highs lack any sort of harshness at all. To my ears this speaker has a very musical and rich sound.
I think Rega probably. Rega is described as very analogue sounding. I just got a Saturn recently and it has a very warm and musical sound. Frankly, I couldn't believe a CD player could make such a difference. It was a big step up from what I had before (Marantz and Arcam universal players). The more pronounced bass is what really jumps out at me with the Saturn, it's the first thing I notice.
I'm sure there are lots of other brands too. One of the best speakers I have ever heard are the PMC TB2i. I wouldn't say they are overly warm, but with the new SEAS tweeter they employ the highs lack any sort of harshness at all. To my ears this speaker has a very musical and rich sound.
have read a post where a guy sold his $6000 Ayre C5XE cd player and bought a Sony SCD-XA5400ES SACD player .... he states that the Sony is 10 times better .... His mates are all selling their expensive cd players and buying the Sony's .... so if you are looking at a cdp, see if you can audition one of these
one off:id change the amp not the cd player
he has already swapped back to the nad amp and still looking at bettering ... speakers are fine, so next step will be the cdp?
he has already swapped back to the nad amp and still looking at bettering ... speakers are fine, so next step will be the cdp?
jaxwired
Well-known member
Don, If you want to improve on your 80w integrated NAD but still have the NAD sound, I would consider either the new NAD C375 or the NAD C275/C165 separates. They are basically the same product in 1 or 2 boxes based on your preference. Contrary to frequent posts, you will not be giving up detail or clarity with these top of the line NAD products. They are very high value for money. Stereophile just gave the C375 a rave review stating it performs "way way out of it's price class", and the British HiFi News gave the separates their outstanding product award beating out several costlier competitors. Go with one of these and you won't be second guessing the choice in a few months.
If you sell the Rotel gear, you can probably pick up the C375 for the cash generated. I'd keep the Rotel CDP as it's a great piece.
If you sell the Rotel gear, you can probably pick up the C375 for the cash generated. I'd keep the Rotel CDP as it's a great piece.
I'm going to try out the NAD. Probably the C375 for starters. I'm also bringing my speakers in to the local Cary dealer to listen to the SLI-80. I want to find out if I like tubes.
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