Flashing pictures on Panasonic Z1

[StanleyAV]

The Viera Product Manager for Europe I am referring to. Clare Newsome the editor of What Hifi can be emailed thus

whathifi@haymarket.com : mark it for her attention. There may be a telephone no in the magazine : that would be much better!!

Given the original prohibitive pricing for the Z1 I doubt that many users in the UK, let alone Europe have one ; I expect existing stocks at the reduced price have now given it a better airing.

Many users purchasing in 2009 went for the V10 instead.

It could be that earlier software - when the Z1 was reviewed - did not have this issue or review material did not pick up on it!!

I have asked around about this problem (as I was tearing my hair out

) but no one seems to have encountered it : very strange!!

I am of the opinion that I had a box problem too : I had 'floating blacks' as it is known too : yet this new box is OK for this! HUH!??

As for cleaning the screen : you should try a microfibre cloth - available in most hardware stores : one moist one to remove the dirt, a dry one to gently buff dry. If the dirt is stubborn you can use an unscented Dettol wipe (not the citrus one!!!) and then a microfibre cloth to buff dry (ensure there are no smears left : direct a light source towards your screen).

I am thankful that I haven't had to send my panel away, its not an inconvenience you want!!

I don't envy you in your difficult choice : for design the Z1 is a winner, it really is a matter of the software in the tuner box!

You won't necessarily like the VT30 picture, on reflection I now wouldn't even prefer the V20 or VT20 of last year. Look and feel of the picture is of equal importance to the overall design. I hope you are able to stick with Z1 IF this matter gets resolved!!?

 

[Clare Newsome]

Just as an update: all these details now with Panasonic, who've said they're on the case.

 

[StanleyAV]

Thanks for that Clare. I hope they sort Russ out, he has the greater need - especially after all he's been through!

I can afford to be patient now my box has been replaced and f/w 2.503 applied.

 

[Anonymous]

Well things are still moving very slowly! After being promised updates twice and not receiving them I finally decided to chase myself. Panasonic are apparently still unable to reproduce the issue with the Z1 they have in their lab. Forgive me but shouldn't they be trying to reproduce the issue with "my" Z1 seeing as it is the one with the fault? If I phoned a garage and told them I had a problem with the brakes on my car, I wouldn't expect the garage to tell me that one of their mechanics has the same car so they will check the brakes on that one and get back to me. After four months of blindly changing pcb's with no real analysis of my problem, having the set returned with signs of damage and finger prints all over the screen (say goodbye to that AR coating!), I am definitely feeling like I'm being given the run around! I think I will detail my entire experience in a letter and copy in Keith Evans, MD of Panasonic UK.

I have attached below two you tube videos of the problem as recorded from my setup. The first was taken by the Panasonic appointed engineer and uses the DVD of Twilight: New Moon as discussed previously. The second was taken this morning and uses a Sky HD broadcast of V Season 2. Both examples "barely" show the issue so I am not sure how Panasonic intend to diagnose the issue using these but I have included them anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqYn89aZlk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIvbaBRymhk

Anyway, have a good weekend to anybody reading.

Yours,

A seriously fed up Panasonic customer.

 

[bigboss]

Starting to feel very let down and the Panasonic store from where I purchased it refused to give me a refund 6 months into my 5 year warranty as it was "against company policy to accept returns after two weeks of ownership".

That's non-sense. It goes completely against Sale of Goods Act & EU Law. Contact Consumer Direct.

This might help you:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theoneshow/consumer/2009/07/03/sale_of_goods_act_letter_downl.html

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Governmentcitizensandrights/Consumerrights/Yourconsumerrightswhenbuyinggoodsandservices/DG_194650

 

[ear]

I cant see a thing wrong in those videos

 

[Anonymous]

I cant see a thing wrong in those videos

Agreed, and that is exactly my concern. I can't get a video capture to pick up the issue that happens so violently and is so glaringly obvious to the naked eye. The pickup of the issue is so minute it is barely detectible and in my mind, not of any use at all.

Panasonic technical had however confirmed that they could see the issue from the first video that used Twilight: New Moon as a test subject. They haven't however managed to reproduce the issue on the Z1 in their labs which is of no surprise to me as I doubt their Z1 is faulty. If Panasonic were to simply take my set away and investigate using that one, they would reproduce in seconds with a variety of material. I simply do not understand why they prefer to diagnose this issue using a shaky camcorder capture and a completely different, non fault exhibiting set? It just strikes me as bizzare.

 

[StanleyAV]

Hi Russ,

Sorry to hear you're still having strife. Are they even using the same source equipment as you and I?

I get this problem just like yourself on mainly darkly lit material using a Humax FoxSat HDR.

I don't believe that some how we both have rogue sets. THIS has to be a software issue. For a while I thought NORMAL mode looked OK but it was just a fluke of the light sensor mitigating circumstances.

I have passed on as much info as I could to Fabrice, their techical dept is meant to be looking at this. NO END for us in sight it seems .....

 

[StanleyAV]

It occurs to me that their lab Z1 could have been fabricated in Japan : there could well be a difference in build between that sample and the European ones - a lot of which were made in their Czech Republic plant.

I could see there is a variation between the two tuner boxes I have had both made in the Czech Republic - batch variation in their panels could also occur.

Neither Russ or I have rogue ones, you would expect the odd one to have anomalies but two with the same issue?

They really need to be looking at Russ's sample first hand or swapping him to a newer model if he so chooses e.g. perhaps the GT30, although like Russ, I agree the style JUST ISN'T THERE on these new models.

 

[Anonymous]

I haven't been told what source equipment they are using in their testing but I don't think source equipment is a factor as I can reproduce the issue with a variety of sources i.e. SkyHD, DVD, BD and streaming media.

I'm still undecided whether I think this is a software issue or not? As a software engineer myself, software was where my suspicions lay initially however, if Panasonic has said they cannot reproduce the issue with their Z1 using the same source material, I am no longer sure. If this was a wide spread issue, I would expect more people to be reporting it and Panasonic to have reproduced it within minutes. I can reproduce on demand.

As regards a replacement, for what I paid for my Z1 I am far closer to the VT30 than any of the other models. I know the Z1 was heavily discounted towards the end but unfortunately I didn't quite benefit from that as much as some. Apart from the GT range not offerng the styling I was looking for when I purchased the Z1, I understand that many of the 2010 issues are still prevailant in the 2011 range. It remains to be seen how the VT30 fairs this year but I am not overly optimistic. I could well be looking elsewhere. I know the alternatives I am looking at have their own issues but they are ones I could live with. Unfortunately, the issue with the Z1 isn't.

 

[StanleyAV]

@Russ,

I don't think we can infer much from their testing. They would need to test yours for any meaningful data to be presented to them. WHY aren't they doing this??

My panel serial no is FC9540224, what is yours? Are they from the same batch?

I am not wholely convinced of it being solely a hardware issue, it ought to trigger on all dark material : on mine it does not.

I watched HellBoy on CH5 last night and it was fine, as are quite a lot of other movies. The fact that it triggers on only some material points to software in my opinion.

Unfortunately for you, any other screen may be too big a compromise : any other brand than Panasonic and you won't achieve the best contrast or black level. I concur that the 2011 range - from what I read - have their own issues and not much improved over the 2010 range with their 50hz anomalies etc etc

Maybe you should push for a swap to the VT30 and hope for the best?

 

[Anonymous]

I'll try and look to see what my serial is before I hand the tv over tomorrow as Panasonic called me today to tell me that they are finally going to pick the set up for inspection.

Hopefully Panasonic are going to make good on this and redeem their supposedly great reputation for quality and service. I will report my experience (good or bad) on the forums when I know more.

Fingers crossed we might have some insight into the issue soon.

 

[StanleyAV]

That's great news Russ : I do hope they manage to sort things out to your satisfaction.

What beggars belief is that you had 3 board changes in your panel : surely THAT should have sorted it; by then the panel section should have at least been equal in function to their own sample.

Which would seem to leave the tuner box and its software as prime suspect in my opinion.

Incidentally I did look at your Youtube samples and found it difficult to see the fault. In fact the PZ85 sample you pulled up earlier was closer to what we see, if not exactly so. I did offer to provide a sample of BBC's The Tudors : no reply from their product manager.

Hopefully they will see the issue straight away from your TV : they do need to resolve which part is the problem - the TV or tuner box. Maybe you should push for a 54" Z1 for all your trouble ; however their goodwill is rather limited : they sweated over giving me a different remote control for an S10 TV I had in 2009!!

Do keep us all posted on these forums, we live in hope that Panasonic know how to resolve its own gremlins.

I really don't want the headache of installing another Panasonic TV : I am on no.7, its not a laughing matter anymore for me !

A run of bad ones from 2009, and two bad V20Bs : enough is enough!!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Stanley,

I don't know if you are able to do this or not but if you have any other flat screen panels available to you, try connecting it as the output to the Z1 tuner box. I have just done so with two different panels from two different manufactures and all my test material passed without a single instance of the issue!

This new evidence combined with the knowledge that a direct hdmi connection between source and Z1 panel still produces the issue says to me that (for me at least) this is a panel issue.

I'd be interested to see what results you have with the same test?

Russ.

 

[StanleyAV]

I hear what you're saying Russ, I don't feel that would conclusively prove anything. Other panels would process the HDMI output differently : they aren't expecting to let the tuner box dictate the signal processing.

When the tuner box is hooked up to the Z1 panel : the tuner box plays an executive role in the processing of the source material - the HDMI direct mode you see is not that the same mode as when the panel processes the Tuner box output.

For me at least I don't recall seeing the panel behave in the same manner as the tuner box. For the panel to be the culprit all material needs to be equally affected by this problem and it is not!! Including some dark material that should have triggered this. With my first tuner box, GAME mode prevented this problem occuring at all : not so with second sample albeit at firmware 2.503. I still believe this is a tuner box/software issue.

I can only speculate that the software in the tuner box is not working with the panel correctly : i.e. whatever comms happens between the two, there is a processing error that isn't sitting well with whatever boards are inside the panel. This is all a bit vague, I'm no hardware engineer. I would expect there to be pre-processing in the tuner box and post processing in the panel and some comms in between to tie the two together. Any minor pre-processing error of certain material could foul up this complex relationship.

Notwithstanding my own experiences of this issue : you really have to ask WHY didn't the board swaps resolve the matter for you IF this is just a panel issue?

I would suggest to you that Panasonic need your tuner box as well; given that there is some variability to this. THEY can then determine which part is wrong.

Do keep us all posted. Cheers.

 

[StanleyAV]

@Russking :

Another thing that occurred to me Russ, is whether the lab Z1 at Panasonic is hooked up via wireless rather than direct HDMI connection. This could make a difference if there was an electrical issue between the panel and tuner boxes.

It would comfortably explain why when you hooked your tuner box up to another TV you couldn't find the issue!

I may try wireless connection and see how I fare, BUT if this if definitely a software issue or some other hardware gremlin, then such a workaround is by no means assured.

@Clare Newsome : can you please check with Fabrice for progress on this problem? all I have heard that it is being investigated. No useful progress report nor even a hint of a resolution on this issue as yet.

 

[Anonymous]

@Clare Newsome : can you please check with Fabrice for progress on this problem? all I have heard that it is being investigated. No useful progress report nor even a hint of a resolution on this issue as yet.

I too would appreciate it if you could check with Fabrice regarding progress. I have never heard anything directly and like Stanley, the only update I have seen here is that "it is being investigated."

My panel was picked up over two weeks ago for analysis and have yet to have an update.

 

[Clare Newsome]

I suspect the very many bank holidays/Easter break hasn't helped - trying to get anything done at the moment seems a struggle, with so many people away!

I will, however, email Fabrice and ask for an update.

 

[Anonymous]

I am so furious right now!

Three weeks after my tv was picked up, Panasonic Customer Services phoned to say they could not reproduce the issue. I told them I could reproduce easily within seconds so I sent them one of the DVD's I use as an example with chapter information of where they could clearly see the issue. They contacted me again today (I've been without the tv for about a month now) and told me that although they could see the issue, their Z1 also does it so therefore "It is not a fault.". Panasonic therefore told me there is nothing more they can do for me.

I really can't believe it has come to this but it looks like it is going to court. Ridiculous!

 

[StanleyAV]

I'm incredulous too, it's unbelievable their attitude. This flaw affects far too much material, and as you said before Russ, it does not affect other Panasonic models. It is not a minor quirk that can be lived with, a great many films and drama can not be reproduced correctly on Z1.

I was struggling with BBC's Hattie drama, and even Star Trek III : The Search for Spock.

Maybe Clare can have some nice words with Fabrice. Surely the whole point of examining your TV was to reproduce the fault so that it could be fixed. Not to fob you or I off in this manner.

A TV has to be fit for purpose and not produce rogue on screen flashes when its picture processing is not up to the job!!

I have emailed WhatHifi (FAO Clare) and copied in the Panasonic Product manager.

@Russ, I wish you luck with resolving it to your satisfaction. I suggest you get an independant report done by a local TV shop to record the problem in writing. That should be helpful for a small claims action.

 

[StanleyAV]

@Russ, one final thing just before you give up in disgust! Try setting Viera Link to OFF in Setup/Link Settings.

This sends control signals over HDMI, expecting to communicate with Panasonic brand source equipment.

It looks to me like it gets itself in a right state if it doesn't get replied to correctly : after all not all customer source is Panasonic.

I was having acute problems with Shawshank Redemption on ITV1 HD last night, after puzzling this one out, and switching it off, the film become more stable with less flashes. I replayed Star Trek III at a scene where I had flashing and it was clean, same goes for an episode of The Tudors (faces flashing).

Only more extensive testing will reveal whether this solves our problem. It would explain why some people are unaffected by it : the compatibility with these control signals will vary from one source to the next.

IF this is the culprit its something Panasonic should take more seriously!!

The firmware default for this should not be ON but OFF!! Incidentally I switched this off when my parents got their S10 Viera TV and their's behaves; however I had an S10 before Z1 and this problem never occurred despite viera link.

You ought to try this when you get your panel back. See if your dark DVD's play OK or not. If this hasn't resolved it, your only option is court action unfortunately.

This won't fully exhonerate their picture software, perhaps only part of this issue is resolved??

I.E. do dark scenes play back OK without annoying flashes or contrast shifts?

I hope you read this in time, it would be a shame to get rid of a Z1; you may well feel its tainted and cursed by now with all the stress and aggravation you have had with this issue.

There still could be mileage in getting a new tuner box too, because this issue is box dependant I feel.

 

[Clare Newsome]

I've prompted Panasonic for a follow-up on this, but it appears Fabrice is away at the moment, so you may have to be patient for a response.

EDIT - Fabrice is visiting Panasonic HQ in Japan.

 

[StanleyAV]

@Clare :

Thanks Clare, I was aware Fabrice is out of office til 19th May. We appreciate your endeavours on our behalf.

I have to be circumspect about what I outlined re:VIERA LINK, I'm not an engineer and don't know if it fully addresses
my own or Mr King's problems.

I hope Russ does try out what I suggest to see if it helps him; perhaps a tuner box swap would help too? Without a full technical investigation by Panasonic, there are too many unknowns here.

Additional : switching off VIERA LINK does resolve some acute flashes experienced in some broadcasts/films, however
after more viewing dramas such as BBC's Crimson Petal and the White (ep.2), it can be seen that not all issues are resolved.

Panasonic technical supplied the most recent firmware they had (to me ): software 2.503.

In Cinema/THX modes there are still anomalous contrast shifts in parts of the picture : backgrounds or faces. These errors are absent when switched to NORMAL mode. However this mode is not optimal for viewing films or drama, and can only be seen as a workaround until such time as a proper fix is forthcoming from Panasonic.

There is a big hit in performance to lose the colour accuracy and improved greyscale that THX offers, even Cinema mode offers greater contrast range than is afforded by use of NORMAL mode.

This can not be seen as a solution when much material is not viewed at its best in NORMAL mode and mal-processed by
the Cinema/THX modes.

The Z1 was the Panasonic flagship, such processing errors are not acceptable given its status and commensurate price attached to said.

 

[StanleyAV]

It is interesting to see the furore over the Sony/BBC 1080p sound dropouts : here we see a manufacturer actively working to
produce corrective firmware when it came to light that their hardware could not cope with a broadcast induced problem.

Let's contrast this with how this issue (that I reported) has been handled by Panasonic UK.
I reported this problem to Panasonic concerning the Z1 and its own firmware problems over 6 months ago.
I am not aware that over that time period that they have been actively working towards a solution.

It clearly has a problem with much HD content as produced by the BBC i.e. the problem is at its worst on much BBC drama productions shot in this format, but you do not see the same commitment to resolving such issues from Panasonic UK, as you do with Sony UK.

(The problem is not exclusive to the HD format but more a picture mode problem inherent to current firmware in Cinema and THX modes; I had additional problems related to a faulty tuner box, but this flashing issue is not related.)

There is no fix in progress for this problem that I am aware of. It has been confirmed that their sample Z1 also has this issue.
A fellow customer, Mr King (of this thread), was told it was not a fault because the problem could be reproduced on their own sample of Z1 - absurd and incredulous to say the least!!

Neither Mr King or myself are nit-picking here, this flashing/contrast anomaly isn't subtle when it occurs nor is it the 'floating black' feature that Panasonic was so quick to dismiss for their 2010 range.

Backgrounds, objects in scenes or characters faces will flux in contrast, in Cinema/THX modes but not Normal mode. This is not a "feature" of how the panel is driven by any means - it is rather omnipresent in dimly lit material but not exclusively so : e.g.
BBC's Doctors, Crimson Petal and the White, Being Human.

I know for a fact that other 2009 models : S10, G10/G15 do not exhibit this problem; I have two S10s at hand at home and have owned G10/G15 models over the 2009/2010 period.

If Z1 owners could have a statement that the recent investigation will result in a definite future firmware fix that would be something - this really needs to be forthcoming from one of their Japanese engineering staff - official statements (as seen in the past) do not always result in wholely positive action!

Panasonic UK really need to adopt a more proactive attitude when software faults are reported to them : I get the feeling that they would prefer their 'more discerning' customers to go away, rather than actively deal with real problems that occur.

@Clare Newsome, if you feel you can make some headway here Clare, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

 

[micks_address]

Hi Stanley, I sympathise with you're situtation but i think you'll be up against it.. i was hoping for firmware fixes for floating blacks in the 2010 models.. but nothing ever came of it.. you're trying to get a firmware fix for a model thats a year older, albiet a flagship model.. i'd say Panasonic just dont have the focus on older models.. i think you're best bet might be to try for a refund.. i'm aware of at least one other person who fought for a refund on there 2010 vt20 and eventually got it.. and bought a VT30 that they are happy with.. i did a deal with my retailer to 'trade' my 5 month old VT20 for a VT30.. it cost be about 350 pounds. but i was glad i did it.. Tvs.. when you're interested and perceptible to picture quality are a pain in the backside.. my wife says she cant see any difference between my VT30 and my brothers series 4 Samsung LCD! she thinks his has a brighter picture... you cant win! I think Panasonic are bringing out a VX300 range later this year, which will go down to 42" so they will probably be pretty good.. but who's to know what issues they will have.. Best of luck with your problem.. i know it can be a headwreck.. Cheers, Mick

It is interesting to see the furore over the Sony/BBC 1080p sound dropouts : here we see a manufacturer actively working to
produce corrective firmware when it came to light that their hardware could not cope with a broadcast induced problem.

Let's contrast this with how this issue (that I reported) has been handled by Panasonic UK.
I reported this problem to Panasonic concerning the Z1 and its own firmware problems over 6 months ago.
I am not aware that over that time period that they have been actively working towards a solution.

It clearly has a problem with much HD content as produced by the BBC i.e. the problem is at its worst on much BBC drama productions shot in this format, but you do not see the same commitment to resolving such issues from Panasonic UK, as you do with Sony UK.

(The problem is not exclusive to the HD format but more a picture mode problem inherent to current firmware in Cinema and THX modes; I had additional problems related to a faulty tuner box, but this flashing issue is not related.)

There is no fix in progress for this problem that I am aware of. It has been confirmed that their sample Z1 also has this issue.
A fellow customer, Mr King (of this thread), was told it was not a fault because the problem could be reproduced on their own sample of Z1 - absurd and incredulous to say the least!!

Neither Mr King or myself are nit-picking here, this flashing/contrast anomaly isn't subtle when it occurs nor is it the 'floating black' feature that Panasonic was so quick to dismiss for their 2010 range.

Backgrounds, objects in scenes or characters faces will flux in contrast, in Cinema/THX modes but not Normal mode. This is not a "feature" of how the panel is driven by any means - it is rather omnipresent in dimly lit material but not exclusively so : e.g.
BBC's Doctors, Crimson Petal and the White, Being Human.

I know for a fact that other 2009 models : S10, G10/G15 do not exhibit this problem; I have two S10s at hand at home and have owned G10/G15 models over the 2009/2010 period.

If Z1 owners could have a statement that the recent investigation will result in a definite future firmware fix that would be something - this really needs to be forthcoming from one of their Japanese engineering staff - official statements (as seen in the past) do not always result in wholely positive action!

Panasonic UK really need to adopt a more proactive attitude when software faults are reported to them : I get the feeling that they would prefer their 'more discerning' customers to go away, rather than actively deal with real problems that occur.

@Clare Newsome, if you feel you can make some headway here Clare, it would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.