Epos Epic 5 and Creek / Jungson / Vincent / other

[Thumpa]

I'd be really grateful for any comments on the following amps to go with Epos Epic 5. I haven't heard nor can I audition any of them. I thought it'd be safest to go with Creek. But which: current series Evo 5350 new or orig Destiny, ex-dem "very little use" (whatever that might be). Both at $2,200. Upgraded version (which Epos seems to use at shows) vs dated gem, used? Otherwise, if anyone's familiar with any of the following three, your views would be appreciated: http://www.avhub.com.au/index.php/Product-Reviews/Hi-Fi/jungson-ja88d.html (Conclusion). Jungson Model: JA-88D Class A Integrated Amplifier specd at 80 W, tho test report shows 110wpc 8 / 190wpc 4. Reviewer described the 30kg / 65lbs "a keeper, the bargain buy of the 21st century" but that was at RRP $2250 -- it's now $1,450 ?? http://www.jungson.com.au/collections/frontpage/products/ja-88d-2009-class-a-integrated-power-amplifier Vincent SV-236MK Hybrid Integrated $2,500 150w / 250w Tubed pre - 3 x 12AX7. Greatest Value at CES 2005; TAS Eds' Choice 2006, 07 and 08. But one reviewer described the hybrid as being a Jekyll and Hyde depending on output level. Lastly, this 31kg / 68lbs beast just interesting: Dussun V6i 'Hyper Class A' -- $1399 -- 150w 8ohm / 300w 4ohm.. Hyper Class A? http://www.dussun.com/english/v6.html

Any other thoughts...? Many thanks

 

[CnoEvil]

I am always uncomfortable telling anyone what to buy (blind), but here is my opinion.

Your musical speakers are very sensitive, but also a 4 ohm load, so the amp may need good current behind it. I think you should be looking at Class A or Hybrid (Vincent make good amps).

Other amps to consider are from Sugden, Pathos and Unison Research (Unico and Valve range).

For Solid State amps that sound well, look at Lavardin and Electrocompaniet.

Creek make good amps, but I think all of the above amps sound better (very personal).

Cno

 

[Thumpa]

Thanks for your input ...

Yes, the real problem is the 'blindness'. I heard the Epics on a Vincent, loved it. Only concern is the reported two-tone nature of the particular hybrid. I'll check out the brands you've added. Tks

 

[Thumpa]

Sugden Mystro and Pathos Classic One MkIII are just do-able, at the Very Limit. Halving the cost tho, obviously preferable, do you have any experience with Opera Consonance kit? Consonance A120 hybrid integrated amplifier / Reference 150 Linear Hybrid Integrated

http://www.osbornloudspeakers.com.au/

From a glowing review of an entire 120 system (A120 / power amp / CD / tuner) perhaps the most intriguing review statement I've read: "Next up was the Consonance A120 hybrid integrated amplifier, which now replaced the Bryston 7B ST/Bel Canto Pre2P, a $9K hardware combination. I want to be careful not to overstate its personality. We are talking about degrees of subtlety here after all. But the fact remains that the A120 added a few more degrees of warmth, depth, body and bass. Suddenly I was hearing mid and upper bass that were so full as to approach the more corporeal side of reality."

And that's all that was said of the A120 in two long pages http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/consonance/system.html

 

[CnoEvil]

The Mystro and the Classic 1 are both great amps with the Pathos being a bit better in my view.

I've never heard the Consonance, but it too looks good.

In order to narrow down the choice, can you describe in as much detail as possible, what music you listen to, and how you like it to sound ie neutral, detailed and analytical or richer and smoother, but still dynamic and detailed (musical and emotional).

 

[Thumpa]

Thanks for taking the time … and for the direction – if only I still had my Luxman!! One of the HFC writers, Jimmy Hughes, owns a Consonance Cyber10 Sig Int valve. And loves it. Two of his reviews

http://www.opera-consonance.com/review%20pic/PDF/CS10%20review_iss49.pdf

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/amplifiers/consonance-cyber-10-940230/review

(btw You prob need to know all UK gear is heaps dearer here, not only shipping but despicable ... others. Being conservative, the Roksan Kandy GBP749 converts to $1174. It's $2100; Aviano 8 GBP599 is $940 but RRP $1699 Wharfies up to 10x and Cyrus 8XPd $3300, Destiny 2 $3.6 ... and of course some Oz makers take advantage. I'd like to limit to Low $2s).

Music: I like a lot of different music (cliche) 60s-on rock, blues, soul, folk / folk-punk to punk to occasional bagpipes ... but to narrow down a bit: Lou Reed is never too far away, listening to Songs for Drella with John Cale and Berlin at the mo and New York is in the wings; Peter Gabriel, Billy Bragg, Richard Clapton, Zevon, Springsteen, Bryan Ferry / Roxy, Bowie, Nick Cave et al. And female equivalents. Joan Armatrading, Tinita Tikarim, Petula Clark ... but then Joy Division, The Clash, The Jam to Staus Quo, Stones, CCR & Who / Daltrey-Townshend ... Lloyd Cole and the Commotions, Motels, Mentals, The Numbers...) SFA recent!!

Slightly different tack: (a) emotionally deep and soulful; (b) rebellious (partic Lou, who in spite of himself can do a ballad better than anyone and can make his cold, hard elec guitar central to it, in spite of itself eg Strawman -- New York. Tho Lou does it almost habitually, combining rebelllion and ballad – but rips and carves with the best e.g. Live at Montreux 2000); or (c) happy, party e'g Mentals: If You Leave Me, Can I Come too? But I tend to go on music binges, so it really can be quite varied. And (a) and (b) are often one and the same

"Musical" and "tuneful" are key but so too are "detail" and timing -- and accuracy ... "richer and smoother, but still dynamic and detailed".

Vincent SV-226 MkII -- $1799: doesn't have first 10wpc Class A, thankfully. Does have three x 12AX7...

http://www.avguide.com/review/vincent-sv-226mk-ii-amplifier "The SV-226 Mk II melds the sweetness of tubes with the control and power of transistors. For this kind of money that’s nothing short of phenomenal" - Steve Gettenberg

I haven't heard one but I believe Marantz is a musical amp, high current dual topology: PM 7003 Oz Best Amp of the Year, with Test Labs reporting 101wpc into 8 @1kHz down to 91wpc at 20Hz and 20kHz and 135wpc into 4 @ 20Hz and 20kHz. Not the 70wpc stated. The PM7004 is just $1300. As said, the PM7003 was acclaimed, likeneed to refined PM7001KI -- tho speaker terminals a bit of an issue. "(at price) ...on the basis of the sound quality it delivered during my listening sessions—and the performance it delivered on the test bench—the PM7003 has the goods, the looks, the power, the pedigree and not least the price, not only to get it past the post but to leave the others more than a few lengths behind.” OzHiFi. Is there an 800X?

Cayin A88T integrated tube amp which, according to TAS, was 'hand made to sound like Mac's fabled MC275' -- $2200, down from 2.8 (USA$1232 – gotta move!!)

Orig Creek Evo down to $990, just to put it there. Evo2 $1575. And Destiny at $2.1. (The 5350, which I know nought abt, is RRP $2.2) Destiny 2 $3.6

Have you heard any Oz amps? Redgum or Burson? Tks again.

 

[Rethep]

I think the Creek Destiny 1 (old stock) would be a good option! As a Cayin A 55t would be too! You do not have to buy the more expensive A88t as it will not give you a much better sound and it is much heavier, which is why i am not interested in it. In my opinion an integrated valve-amp must not weigh more than about 20 kilo's. Otherwise it is hard to carry by one person.

The Creek and the Cayin are both tested on "Techradar.com" (as their substitutes), as is the Epos Epic 5. With my Epos ES-11 (from 1991) it is great fun listening to the Cayin with unbelieveble amount of sounstage-depth. The Epic 5 could be my next investment, if really better than my ES-11's, which have served me 20 years now, and still do!

Good luck!

 

[ABM78]

Hey thumpa feel your pain, even worse I am in Darwin so we don't even have the choice to go test many brands, shame you didn't post a couple of weeks ago had a mate sell his Jungson JA-88 in Mint condition, barely used for I think $800. He swears by it and loved it just space and change in circumstance he said it was never used. Seems like great value even at $1450, I was close to getting one . The prices here are ridiculous, I bout a pair of B&W 685's blind for $1000 and is my biggest buy regret. That said I did manage to get sevenoaks to post me a Leema Pulse MkII when they were clearing them, delivered to Darwin for $1600 I think they retail for twice that here. So that is an option if your willing to take the risk.

 

[Thumpa]

Hi ABM78

Dude!!? You play with fire... 685s??? Just kiddin'. Leema Pulse I suspect more than compensates, esp at that coin!!

Darwin? That provides some perspective. Are you there to work or local?

Cld you onsell the 685s fairly smartly, even wear a bit of a loss cos the Pulse has put you miles ahead? Otherwise (cos You don't like!!) you're really nicely set up. (And the 685s if I recall are, um, quite good for low-level listening...).

Thanks for the word on the Jungson, that all seems a bit good to be true, including the price, which is bordering on weird. Love to be able to hear the glowing blue monster.

Anyway, I'm flat strap right now. If you wanna get in touch here's my 'safe' gmail -- sbdogsitter@gmail.com (assumptions and comments re email are quite amazing ... simply my sister's two Rotts, a mostly facetious comment to her).

Cheers

 

[ABM78]

Yeah Thumpa I'm a local here in Darwin.

Haha, well wait for it I now use the B&W as a centre and a rear in my home theatre as a 6.1, I can deal with those bright tweeters for the dialogue, and a pair of Wharfedale diamonds as the surround backs. Not a lot of balance there haha but it does my movies well enough. I since replaced the B&W's with some Dynaudio Excites X-12's, lovely little speakers, sound bigger than they are but am keen to see if my Leema could run a pair of Dynaudio Focus 140's comfortably and a possible future upgrade! Don't want to venture to far away from the brands that have worked for me so far, sure I could be missing out but I also might end up with another 685 situation. I also have the Burson Audio Buffer really opens up the sound further and a very noticable difference in bottom end clout while remaining tight.

My mate is in Melbourne he ended up selling his Jungson and a pair of Dyanudio Audience 82 floor standers I think they were for $1500 just a couple of weeks ago, far less than he wanted but I think he was under strict orders by the..uh-hum boss to get them out as they were taking up space! Bargain price really and I know how he looks after his stuff, whoever bought it got a sensational deal! He also had a lite? dac. Some of those Chinese brands seem to offer massive bang for your buck, you would expect any that make it to our shures would also be of a higher build quality that what is sold locally there (total assumption).

Just read up on your Epos speakers, sounds like they are some good speakers and the type I would prob also enjoy, considering my Dynaudios are $1400, then to see how much extra speaker you have for just a little more cash I feel a bit inadequate haha.

Again though keep an eye out on some of those british sites and ebay UK for sales etc, so far I have found whoever I have contacted very helpful.

 

[CnoEvil]

Thumpa, you indeed have a conundrum....though one of the clues as what to look for, is in your previous amp; the Luxman is indeed a lovely amp.

FWIW I think you should go with SS Class A, Valves (Cayin has a decent reputation) or a good Hybrid.
Look at amps that don't have a large premium because of where they come from. With all the valuable research you are doing, I think you will end up with something musical....there have been a lot of good suggestions already listed.

I have heard of Burson but not Redgum, but never listened to it.

Good luck with your decision

Cno

 

[CnoEvil]

There was a good discussion about a couple of Vincent amps here (from post No.4):

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/cyrus-6xp-or-leema-pulse-for-rs6?page=2

 

[Thumpa]

Thanks for your input / time Cno.

You've helped heaps; your great help was last night (yest), as I'm sure you know, but to which I referred rather ambiguously as direction.

I got so used to researching (trouble there is I really enjoy it) I stopped looking inward.

Yeah, sure, it may be unattractive...

But the research won't go astray. I've basically aimed up at working in / around the audio biz in one of two capacities, have a few ideas I'm happy with already and I expect to have quite limited boundaries. There's just so much kit and much of the really good is so expensive -- or out of my reach -- it's almost an absurd hobby, partic if one forgets abt the music. Seems some do

Albeit obvious, a big win tonight: a tube amp offers up so many possibilities with sound experimentation. Now that's how to change kit. Maybe there is wisdom in old age ... and more older dudes have tubes!!! So of course I'll be getting SS!!

Or wiIl I?

A cuppla Cayin owner reviews, below, all share partic tube mixes / sound outcomes . May be handy, One Day. Thanks agn.

http://www.audioreview.com/cat/amplification/integrated-amplifiers/cayin-audio-distribution/a-88t-tube-integrated-amplifier/prd_371070_2717crx.aspx

 

[CnoEvil]

Whatever you decide, don't forget to report in and let us know what your doing.

Good luck

Cno

 

[Thumpa]

You feel inadequate? Poor ABM78!! Heh heh.

When I said you were nicely set up, I really meant you were really nicely set up: I knew then that senior Stereophile writer Robert Reina uses X12s as a reference (for speakers under US$2000 -- and they sell there for just $1200). He loves 'em. And the favoured amp of one of the owners of the (huge) Carlton Audio Video store in Melb is the Leema. Apparently he started out in audio in the UK in the early 80s while at uni, so he's been around it -- most highly regarded. Lastly, the owner of the best audio shop in Bris, Caxton St Audio, loves Wharfies. Swears by the bang for buck ("honesty") but likes 'em regardless.

But that was then. Not long after that I lost my sense of humour, well and truly, Mr reference X12. I checked Reina's review of the X12 and he did comparisons ... that's about when it all got particularly unfunny. He likened the X12s to, among others, the Epos M16i, a 2-1/2-way floorstander that's almost twice the cost in the US!! Well, I never!! Of course, the upside is that Epos' were in mind, and the good with the good. At least that's what I've been telling myself!!

As a firm believer in karma, I think your blind B&W buy is already paying divivdends for you -- sure as ship ain't helpin' me any: I went to the sevenoaks site, no Creek. But guess what's ex-display for ridiculous money? Leema Acoustics Stream II CD player!! Was GBP1300, (AU2035) now 499 / AU782. Four or five hours (3.45am London -- I shoulda waited a cuppla hrs) to go to store opening if you're interested. I reaalise you just, um, invested in some fine-grade Hi Fidelity transducers, so it may be bad timing. But if that is the case, well, far be it for me to ruin your day ... (I'm really so pleased I came here for advice!!! Heh heh)

Here's deal no two: Carlton AV has a pair of Leema Xero Bookshelves for half price at 800. One speaker is damaged, it was dropped -- but I reckon it's very fixable -- and it may even be a way out of the remaining 685s: straight swap. Anyway, I'll leave the page site, judge for yourself (good, close pics and the full, sad short story). If you feel like going for it, they're excellent blokes (albeit not Huge B&W fans!!). The Leemas have been at the store for ages, at least six months. I'm sure the boys wld appreciate turnover. I dunno how you're going with matching, um, 3 prs!! But they're beautiful, classy speakers with a really nice brand badge feature and very close in size to your X12s: exactly the same depth, just 1.5cm less wide, 3cm shorter ... I'm really liking them!!

btw I think using 'normal' speakers for centre and mid-rear is just smart. Some of those centre speakers have some specs from space, and look stupid to boot. "If I turn this box sideways, BillyJoBob Jr, where dwa put the twitter?? Heh heh ... amusing myself!! I'm finding it hard to write without the usual adjectives, just for occasional colour. Esp for BillyJoBob Jrs!!

Okay, outta here for now. Keep an eye out for Creek etc. If you contact re CD, perhaps you cld ask them abt a good destiny or 2 contact? Good luck (you? need luck!?) safe travels...

http://www.ssav.com/products/productdetail/part_number=Stream%20II/1765.0.4.3

http://www.carltonaudiovisual.com.au/?q=node/view/1499

http://www.leema-acoustics.com/shop/component/loudspeakers/xero

http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/dynaudio_excite_x12_loudspeaker

 

[CnoEvil]

In case you haven't read it, here is a review of the Pathos Classic One (scroll down to third page): http://www.pathosacoustics.com/nov03.pdf

 

[Thumpa]

In case you haven't read it, here is a review of the Pathos Classic One (scroll down to third page): http://www.pathosacoustics.com/nov03.pdf

Thanks Cno

I had an excellent, long yarn today with a bloke who is a self-titled 'reformed' tube freak whose passion once led him to asia / the orient to explore the art / scope etc -- pre-web days.

Essentially, I was enlightened (at least for now) against tubes for numerous reasons, including climate, conflict with another passion ... (I don't want to start a war here with tube lovers). I was perhaps a little ignorant on some functional and operational matters, at least within my budget.

It was a good chin-wag: tube quality, expense -- personality typing -- lots covered. I had been seriously enthused, seriously considering, to that point but I'd say abt 10 mins had me spun back. I was still at the link below only a while ago.

I want to verify some info ... I am dancing around one point I'm not prepared to place here, tho not comfortable not sharing...

I'm sure i'll still end up with tubes, too curious, but right now ... right now, it's been too long, I want my system yesterday!!

I ordered two quotes today, responses in 8 hrs; will investigate asap importing, hope to be content before week's end.

At a minimum, I'll have Epic 5, Destiny, Rega DAC and Sonos ZP90 -- already have universal disc transport. Ironically, there cld be more...

I look forward to updating you.

Cheers

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?aamps&1167589061&openfrom&1&4#1

 

[CnoEvil]

I had an excellent, long yarn today with a bloke who is a self-titled 'reformed' tube freak whose passion once led him to asia / the orient to explore the art / scope etc -- pre-web days.

Essentially, I was enlightened (at least for now) against tubes for numerous reasons, including climate, conflict with another passion ... (I don't want to start a war here with tube lovers). I was perhaps a little ignorant on some functional and operational matters, at least within my budget.

It was a good chin-wag: tube quality, expense -- personality typing -- lots covered. I had been seriously enthused, seriously considering, to that point but I'd say abt 10 mins had me spun back. I was still at the link below only a while ago.

From my perspective, I just want people to explore all the options. The more you understand (good and bad) before purchasing, the better.

Tubes can certainly be more hassle, but less so in a hybrid design. As in all things, balance is the key, and you may need to offset the argument with another "knowledgeable bloke" who can put the alternative view. I have never lived with a tube amp, so don't feel qualified to give meaningful advice on ownership. I like Class A, but went the SS route.

 

[Thumpa]

(Laughing) I KNEW you were going to say that ... ONE guru represents an imbalance; we're two-ch around here!

And I can't argue with that, only an idiot wld. Exclude guru entirely ... the audiogon forum, see Bonger, was enough in itself...

I really like your M O. It's admirable, not that I'm a judge. And I like advice /info /opinion, partic alternatives, but ultimately...

I was really keen on the Consonance hybrid, obvious logical choice. Excellent specs (prob even true) easily least costly (save $650 minus $60 per ship) home-trial (which will be arranged anyway) nice tube and albeit ambiguously, sound likened to $9k pre/power -- by one reviewer. Sure, who knows reviewer's / employer's commercial / personal conflicts / politics etc etc ETC.

But for me, it was the brevity of comment on the amp, esp in relation to the length of the article, that stood out, almost like a code. That and the "$9k hardware"!!

However, taking into account the opinion of another... it was unattractive. Largely very silly but just as real.

btw as you might have seen, I thoroughly enjoyed the "Vincent" read, on a number of levels. Very good.

Big Thanks