DVD Vs Blu-Ray

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A lot has been discussed about the battle between DVD and Blu-Ray.
But i'm still puzzled about one thing: if a Blu-Ray is supposed to deliver a 5 times sharper picture on (full hd) tv's than DVD's,
then how does a upscaled DVD compare to this? A DVD that is processed by a decent DVD player to 1080p/i
can't be 5 times (less) sharper than a Blu-Ray. I think a regular DVD on 720p can be defeated by a Blu-Ray Disc with the promise of being
5 times sharper, but if you compare a 1080p DVD to a Blu Ray Disc, how much better is a Blu-Ray Disc?

The prices of Blu-Ray Players continue to drop, but a good DVD player can still be picked up for 35-55 pounds, that's a lot of value for money.
 
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I think alot depends on which tv and blu ray player you have, I definetely notice a difference on mine.
 

Frank Harvey

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All upscaling does is 'fill in the gaps' to pretty much double the lines to make 576 lines into 1080. It doesn't make it HD. It can make DVD look a bit sharper, and more acceptable on a large screen, but upscaling can't increase detail - you can't add in what's not there in the first place.

If you really want to see how different Bluray is to DVD, don't look at close ups on faces - although you'll see a difference - look in the background at forests and cityscapes and see just how much more detail is being offered by Buray. I've been stunned by some shots on BD - I'm into architecture and any shots of places like Prague or Rome really do old buildings justice.
 

robjcooper

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It's actually far more than just doubling the lines, as SD pics are 720 x 576 i.e 414720 pixels per frame which the upscaling has to then artificially process to fill a frame measuring 1920 x 1080 - i.e. 2073600 pixels per frame which is 5 times the amount of pixels and therefore of resolution. Also, don't forget that the SD picture on your DVD is recorded in a 4x3 frame ratio using an anamorphic image which then is electronically stretched to give you a widescreen image i.e even more processing. HD is a native 16x9 widescreen format so no image stretching is needed.

The images from DVD are decent when upscaled, but they are not HD and no matter how good your DVD player or TV are, they never will be as good.

Rob
 
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Anonymous

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while all the above is true , ive seen some dvds (training day , american psycho) that look as good as some blu-rays (heat , full metal jacket) .....
 

ElectroMan

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Not sure battle is the right word, as both DVDs and Blu-rays - players and discs - are made by the same manufacturers!

And I believe the claim is that Blu-ray delivers 4 times the detail - though I doubt if you'll see a Blu-ray that looks four times as good as the DVD.
 
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Anonymous

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I think they take the maximum theoretical resolution of 576x711 = 409536 for 4:3 pal crt, and compare it to maximum theoretical resolution of 1080x1920 =2073600 for a 16:9 fixed pixel modern display. 2073600/409536=5.06. So upto 5x the resolution :eek:f standard definition.

Visible difference between blu-ray and dvd. Perception of image quality is determined by MTF modulated transfer function the contrast ratio between details. The MTF of large details determines how well objects stand out from the background, how sharp and how much depth the image has. MTF of middle to small details determines how well textures stand out in the objects, how lifelike clothing textures and skin tones look, textures are also a primary source of depth cues for the eye/brain so again it helps with image depth. MTF of tiny details only defines maximum resolvable resolution and is usually the size most image noise will be present. Viewer perception of sharpness is usually measured by the MTF of 3 to 12 line pairs per degree of the viewers visual arc, with the middle 6 line pairs being the most important. By my figuring at 1.5 x screen width a 1pixel white, 1pixel black line pair on a 1080x1920 high definition display is >25 line pairs per degree, at 1x screen width >16 line pairs per degree. So even at close viewing distances with a front projector it is not the increased resolution that makes blu-ray look better. It is the higher MTF in the middle to small details, the textures and skin tone details. The MTF of dvd rolls off more sooner, the MTF curve is lower. The blu-ray curve stays high longer and rolls of more sharply at the end.

PAL DVD resolution is often quoted as 576 lines by 720 sample points because MPEG uses multiples of 16 in its encoding, but actual resolution is lower. DVDs are sampled at 13.5MHz so the Nyquist limit is 6.75MHz for a resolution of about 540x720. But it is lower still as to prevent aliasing artifacts nothing above 6.75MHz can make it on to the recording, so the analogue/digital converter is prededed by a low-pass (anti-aliasing filter) a brickwall 6.75MHz filter is not used as it would cause a steep roll-off toward the cut-off point, instead to prevent overshoot a filter at 5.75MHz (about 460x613) is used, this filter has typically removed all information above 6MHz resolution of 480x640. But it gets even lower still as many dvds only have full luminance resolution up to 5 or 5.5MHz resolution of about 400x533 to 440x587. Since standard definition production also has a limited resolution of 6MHz anyway, anything above 6MHz is removed by many dvd players video DAC because it is most likely noise. The exception is when material has been down converted from a high definition source for mastering onto standard definition dvd and the dvd player is upscalling it to high definition, in this case any information present on the disc upto 6.75MHz might be used.

Actual visible resolution of high definition 1080x1920. I have read a good super 35mm film is only high Modulated Transfer Function (high contrast details) out to about 500 line pairs with some out to 700 line pairs. So old fims transfered to blu-ray may have little contrast at 960 line pairs - 1920 pixels. High definition cameras do not usually supersample and have filters before the photoreceptors to spread details over more than one receptor and according to SMPTE standards a 30MHz filter to roll off contrast above 872 line pairs, these filters are to prevent aliasing banding due to otherwise exceeding the Nyquisit sampling rate. Some high definition Tv stations at least in the UK are actually 1400 resolution due to the encoder then upsampled to 1920.

Maybe with down sampled 2K and 4K digital cinema films you get higher resolution but visible resolution is also limited by the Kell factor of the display. With a Kell factor of 1, each pixel of the image is represented by one pixel on the display, as a 1 pixel in size black detail on a white image moved across the display it would alternate between being represented by one black pixel and being represented by two grey pixels as it went in and out of display pixel alignment, so it would cause flickering noise. Since a image pixel is unlikely to line up exactly with display pixel it usually loses resolution and contrast by becoming two grey pixels. A image of a maximum resolution alternating black and white lines test pattern would be displayed as a solid grey block if it did not line up exactly with the display. With a Kell factor of 0.5 you get best case two black - two white, worst case one black - one grey - one white. With Kell factor 0.666 on a image of two black - two white alternating lines you get best case one black - one grey - one white, worst case one black - two grey - one black or one white - two grey - one white. Kell factor is typically 0.7-0.8 meaning 7 or 8 pixels of image are represented by 10 pixels of display. The loss of contrast in fine details caused by the Kell factor is partially offset by increasing the contrast of fine details, peaking which can casue the noise to be more visible, and with analogue methods ringing. Besides digitally mastered test cards, and cgi I do not think any sources have 1 pixel sized high contrast details to represent. So high definitions quoted 1080x1920 resolution is not usually visible resolution.
 

Frank Harvey

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robjcooper: It's actually far more than just doubling the lines, as SD pics are 720 x 576 i.e 414720 pixels per frame which the upscaling has to then artificially process to fill a frame measuring 1920 x 1080 - i.e. 2073600 pixels per frame which is 5 times the amount of pixels and therefore of resolution.

I was just bringing it down to a basic level, as people switch off when they see numbers galore - I did
emotion-1.gif
 
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Anonymous

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Hi, I must admit I am a little dissapointed with Blu Ray not as sharp as I would of expected
 

Frank Harvey

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Don't forget that movies are filmed on film - so won't look as sharp as live TV or studio programmes which are shot on video. I think I've seen about 5 discs that are disappointing so far, all the rest have been an improvement, especially the audio.
 
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Anonymous

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Knightout - you get a second 'Whoa' in two days !!

I reckon it's title/transfer specific. There's some pretty wack BD's out there and A1 DVD transfers - and vice versa. But you only have to watch something like Wall-E on BD to see the increase in pq over their DVD siblings.

I'm sometimes in awe of the level of detail that can not only be seen, but heard through decent DTS-HD MA mixes.
 
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Anonymous

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Emmodd:I'll second that. Wall-E is just stunning

It is ain't it ?! I know there could be the argument that it's CGI, and all CGI is going to look the mutts nuts on BD, but there's so many other flicks out there transferred from film that look just as mighty.

If you're looking for a demo disc to see what BD can really bring, then I still swear by.... 'Hairspray' lol ! Not everyone's cup of char, but it's pq is so sharp, vibrant and noise free that it makes the viewing experience of (what I think is) a great film that much more pleasurable. The audio is fantastic on it too with one of the best 7.1 DTS-HD MA mixes I've heard on any movie to date.
 
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Anonymous

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The entirety of Knightouts post: holy ****

you are awesome even though I don't understand you
 

rendu

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My experience with BD was also not as good as I expected. I bought a PS3 and thought that I could through away my old DVD but, I was wrong..... Maybe the reason is that my TV is only 32" but, I do not see much improvement. When something already looks perfect I suppose it is difficult to notice that the other looks perfect perfect... not sure it has much value this blue-ray invention.

I heard similar comments lately from other collegues who recently bought a BD player.

Anyway, future will tell....

Pablo
 
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Anonymous

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Pablo, I suspect you may be in the minority in thinking there is little value in BD.

I have a fairly high end DVD player which upscales to 1080p, has Farouda processing etc and there is simply no comparison between the images that produces and those which my PS3 produces, The difference between a PS3 and a current dedicated player is likely to be even more profound.
 

professorhat

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I think the main thing Blu-Ray has going against it is you need the system to take advantage of it. I can understand someone sitting 10 feet away from a 32" TV and playing it through the TV's speakers not being blown away by Blu-Ray - I can tell the difference, but not enough to make me amazed by it. However, on my 50" TV and playing it through my surround system - well, I can't watch DVDs on it any more because they are so inferior it makes me cringe!
 

rendu

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Yes, I am sure you are right and there is difference and that, if you compare a TV side by side it is probably easier to see. Maybe I need to do more comparison and as I mentioned before it is also possible that my TV with only 32" will not get the best out of BD anyway. I was surprised that I heard more similar coments from other people who have bigger TVs. If I play today a DVD and tomorrow a BD and I ask my girlfriend to tell me which of them was which, I am sure she would have no idea... Maybe we can try this experiment and come back with the results... blind test by non-tech users.
 

Tom Moreno

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rendu:Yes, I am sure you are right and there is difference and that, if you compare a TV side by side it is probably easier to see. Maybe I need to do more comparison and as I mentioned before it is also possible that my TV with only 32" will not get the best out of BD anyway. I was surprised that I heard more similar coments from other people who have bigger TVs. If I play today a DVD and tomorrow a BD and I ask my girlfriend to tell me which of them was which, I am sure she would have no idea... Maybe we can try this experiment and come back with the results... blind test by non-tech users.

My wife is as non-tech as they come and we have a 32" 720P panasonic. The other day in our lovefilms we got in Pride and Glory on DVD that was added to our list before the Blu-ray was available on Lovefilm. I turned on the system setup the audio selection and paused the film at the 0:0:0 mark waiting for her to finish putting the baby to bed and join me. I pressed play and within a minute she asked me, "Why are we watching this on DVD, surely this is available on blu-ray?" I was proud. And this was with a recent film with a decent transfer.
 
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Anonymous

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runcible:

The entirety of Knightouts post: holy ****

you are awesome even though I don't understand you

Putting the differences in resolution all in terms of line pairs and at the end saying what viewing distances I think the differences become apparant to the viewer.

VHS for comparison has a <> line pair resolution of typically up to 120 line pairs.

Many DVDs due to pre-smoothing are only full contrast out to 266.5 line pairs or 293.5 line pairs. The best DVDs are still limited by the way they are mastered to full contrast out to 306.5 line pairs, with details present but lower contrast out to 320 line pairs, possibly 360 line pairs with down converted high definition stuff.

Blu-rays are limited by the source material, 35mm film only gives high contrast out to 500 line pairs, with some detail present out to 700 line pairs. High Definition Cameras due to filtering roll off contrast above 872 line pairs. 2K or 4K cinema films down converted to consumer high definiton may retain higher contrast in smaller details.

1080p displays are limited due to the Kell factor (source details do not line up perfectly with display pixels except on test cards) to display high contrast details out to 672-768 line pairs, with detail possibly present out to 960 line pairs.

Perception of picture quality is most dependent on contrast within the size of details the eye/brain is most contrast sensitive to 3 to 12 line pairs per degree of the viewers field of view, being most sensitive at 6 line pairs.

For a 32" display (15.69"x27.89") DVD 306.5 line pairs before contrast rolls off. For 12 high contrast line pairs to occupy one degree of the viewers field of view, the viewer needs to be 5ft3in away from the screen. Any closer and he should perceive Blu-ray as superior to even a very good dvd. At closer than 2ft8in the distance DVD high contrast line pairs are nolonger present at 6 line pairs per degree, the DVD should look soft and Blu-ray massively superior. (comparing VHS to the above the difference between VHS and higher resolution formats should become easy to see at closer than 13ft4in and very obvious at closer than 6ft8in)

For a 40" display (19.61" x 34.86") I work it out as closer than 6ft6in to easily see the difference between DVD and Blu-ray, 3ft3in or closer for the difference to be massive.

For a 50" display (24.51" x 43.58") I work it out as closer than 8ft2in to easily see the difference between DVD and Blu-ray, 4ft1in or closers for the difference to be massive.

The BBC believes the typical domestic viewing distance is 4 to 6 x screen height. So is DVD good enough do you really need or see a vast improvement in picture quality at what the BBC belives are typical viewing distances. The 4x screen height viewing distance is the same distance I figured out above as the closest you could be to DVD before Blu-ray staretd to easily look better. At 6x screen height the benefit of blu-ray over dvd although still present is not going to be hugely noticeable. The BBC currently assess the picture quality of their high definition tv channel at 4x screen height viewing distance, which might explain why many people are complaining it looks no better than good quality standard defintion.
 

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