take a look at this peeps. http://www.techradar.com/news/audio/home-cinema-audio/hi-fi-boss-slams-rip-off-industry-162930
Double OOOPs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Alec
Well-known member
Oh dear. But then, that argument would mean you have to know your parts, and an audition would have to involve opening the amp or whatever, and establishing the quality of such parts. But then you wouldnt be following only your ears, would you...
Alec
Well-known member
No al, we dint have any heated discussions.It was a typo. I was referring to an other discussion elsewhere on the same topic/link. Certain errors when you try to multitask.
Alec
Well-known member
see what you mean. think it was probably my mistake - i just misunderstood. had to double check as i dont tend to get heated in cable debates, as i rarely contribute at all.
i wonder which 50 watt amplifier he was referring to for 750 quid. i have a brand in mind which is very popular and cell amplifiers 50w at roughly that price. any ideas?? regarding knowing your compoents in the box - well am trying to ,understand the mechanics better ( in terms of why different players/amps sound different) so hope that can give me some information as to judge quality when looking at spec lists etc. i think certain brands including AVI produce equipment of such build quality that im more inclinded to 'trust' their technical capability. i have primare kit and feel reasured by the build quality etc and relatively affordable prices. Can't say that about some other brands though. i wish the brand name wasn't omitted in the article!
A very interesting article, but I cant help but think this is happening all over the electronics industry. I believe It is often stated by many posters that twice the price does not imply twice the quality.
[quote user="JAXON5"]i wonder which 50 watt amplifier he was referring to for 750 quid. i have a brand in mind which is very popular and cell amplifiers 50w at roughly that price. any ideas?? regarding knowing your compoents in the box - well am trying to ,understand the mechanics better ( in terms of why different players/amps sound different) so hope that can give me some information as to judge quality when looking at spec lists etc. i think certain brands including AVI produce equipment of such build quality that im more inclinded to 'trust' their technical capability. i have primare kit and feel reasured by the build quality etc and relatively affordable prices. Can't say that about some other brands though. i wish the brand name wasn't omitted in the article![/quote]
When you see how well and solid Marantz equipment is put together for a couple of hundred pounds and then play with a supernait at ten times the price and find a loose feeling volume knob, then open another box to find the next one has the same vague/cheap feeling pot, thats what I call consistent build quality ...
When you see how well and solid Marantz equipment is put together for a couple of hundred pounds and then play with a supernait at ten times the price and find a loose feeling volume knob, then open another box to find the next one has the same vague/cheap feeling pot, thats what I call consistent build quality ...
Alec
Well-known member
Just a musing - would someone look in some speakers and think "the parts are cheap as chips, the markup is ridiculous, yet i can afford them, and like the sound, so ill buy 'em", or would they not buy 'em...? i understand the point about the standard of the parts, but what i mean is, its hard to apply in the real world, unless we can trust companies not to rip us off.
[quote user="al7478"]Just a musing - would someone look in some speakers and think "the parts are cheap as chips, the markup is ridiculous, yet i can afford them, and like the sound, so ill buy 'em", or would they not buy 'em...? i understand the point about the standard of the parts, but what i mean is, its hard to apply in the real world, unless we can trust companies not to rip us off.[/quote]
I dont care about the internal component choice as such, as long as it sounds good thats fine with me. What I do find annoying is when I spend thousands and the bits that I can see or interface with are not up to scratch such as in my previous posting. There's no excuse for that.
I dont care about the internal component choice as such, as long as it sounds good thats fine with me. What I do find annoying is when I spend thousands and the bits that I can see or interface with are not up to scratch such as in my previous posting. There's no excuse for that.
[quote user="al7478"]Just a musing - would someone look in some speakers and think "the parts are cheap as chips, the markup is ridiculous, yet i can afford them, and like the sound, so ill buy 'em", or would they not buy 'em...? i understand the point about the standard of the parts, but what i mean is, its hard to apply in the real world, unless we can trust companies not to rip us off.[/quote]
i know what you mean and i agree trust does play here, however, i would not knowingly buy something which is cheap as chips to make for a ridiculous mark up. that i think would be dishonesty from the manufacturers point f view and insulting to the consumer. the whole point for me is the company/brand should be proud of their components/ expertise and their products as a whole and their customers proud to own their products. I dont own Musical fidelity products or Arcam etc but i believe in their quality ( having heard them also). they look good, are solid as hell and i doubt people feel ripped off. Paying 750 for a 40w or 50w amplifier that (if im right about which one AVI boss was referring to) that looks a bit plastic would for me be risky ( even if it did sound good). this of course would be irrelevant if somene opened it up and proved me wrong!
i know what you mean and i agree trust does play here, however, i would not knowingly buy something which is cheap as chips to make for a ridiculous mark up. that i think would be dishonesty from the manufacturers point f view and insulting to the consumer. the whole point for me is the company/brand should be proud of their components/ expertise and their products as a whole and their customers proud to own their products. I dont own Musical fidelity products or Arcam etc but i believe in their quality ( having heard them also). they look good, are solid as hell and i doubt people feel ripped off. Paying 750 for a 40w or 50w amplifier that (if im right about which one AVI boss was referring to) that looks a bit plastic would for me be risky ( even if it did sound good). this of course would be irrelevant if somene opened it up and proved me wrong!
Alec
Well-known member
[quote user="drummerman"]
[quote user="al7478"]Just a musing - would someone look in some speakers and think "the parts are cheap as chips, the markup is ridiculous, yet i can afford them, and like the sound, so ill buy 'em", or would they not buy 'em...? i understand the point about the standard of the parts, but what i mean is, its hard to apply in the real world, unless we can trust companies not to rip us off.[/quote]
I dont care about the internal component choice as such, as long as it sounds good thats fine with me. What I do find annoying is when I spend thousands and the bits that I can see or interface with are not up to scratch such as in my previous posting. There's no excuse for that.
[/quote]
on reflection, i was talking nonsense. i agree with you, and i also think that my answer to my own question is: if i tried all the speakers in my budget, and knew that the cheapest was also the best vfm (in terms of parts, profit margins etc), but it sounded carp, would i buy it? No. We all aknowledge that companies have to make a profit and, while we may object to the sheer amount of that profit, we make allowances for a product that makes us happy. quite simple when i think of it that way.
[quote user="al7478"]Just a musing - would someone look in some speakers and think "the parts are cheap as chips, the markup is ridiculous, yet i can afford them, and like the sound, so ill buy 'em", or would they not buy 'em...? i understand the point about the standard of the parts, but what i mean is, its hard to apply in the real world, unless we can trust companies not to rip us off.[/quote]
I dont care about the internal component choice as such, as long as it sounds good thats fine with me. What I do find annoying is when I spend thousands and the bits that I can see or interface with are not up to scratch such as in my previous posting. There's no excuse for that.
[/quote]
on reflection, i was talking nonsense. i agree with you, and i also think that my answer to my own question is: if i tried all the speakers in my budget, and knew that the cheapest was also the best vfm (in terms of parts, profit margins etc), but it sounded carp, would i buy it? No. We all aknowledge that companies have to make a profit and, while we may object to the sheer amount of that profit, we make allowances for a product that makes us happy. quite simple when i think of it that way.
Alec
Well-known member
When reading reviews, and then checking out a potential purchase in the flesh, build quality is certainly a major consideration for me - external build quality that is. Going to audition some kit and then asking if it's okay to whip out your screwdriver and slide the lid off might be pushing your luck, even with the most accommodating of dealers. It would be interesting if more reviews gave a better indication of the quality of the internals, beyond the usual manufacturer blurb (upgraded this, revised that, extensively reworked the other).
By the way, can someone just tell cretins like me which manufacturer is being referred to? Or will we all get sued into oblivion?
Finally, may I note that it was a very interesting article, although two hyperlinks to RS don't do anything to help its credibility.
By the way, can someone just tell cretins like me which manufacturer is being referred to? Or will we all get sued into oblivion?
Finally, may I note that it was a very interesting article, although two hyperlinks to RS don't do anything to help its credibility.
[quote user="al7478"][quote user="drummerman"]
[quote user="al7478"]Just a musing - would someone look in some speakers and think "the parts are cheap as chips, the markup is ridiculous, yet i can afford them, and like the sound, so ill buy 'em", or would they not buy 'em...? i understand the point about the standard of the parts, but what i mean is, its hard to apply in the real world, unless we can trust companies not to rip us off.[/quote]
I dont care about the internal component choice as such, as long as it sounds good thats fine with me. What I do find annoying is when I spend thousands and the bits that I can see or interface with are not up to scratch such as in my previous posting. There's no excuse for that.
[/quote]
on reflection, i was talking nonsense. i agree with you, and i also think that my answer to my own question is: if i tried all the speakers in my budget, and knew that the cheapest was also the best vfm (in terms of parts, profit margins etc), but it sounded carp, would i buy it? No. We all aknowledge that companies have to make a profit and, while we may object to the sheer amount of that profit, we make allowances for a product that makes us happy. quite simple when i think of it that way.[/quote]
i think we should be able to expect not being ripped off . here's a difference paying a premium for a product and being blantantly ripped off.
drummerman - i agree totally about outward fascia not being up to scratch. no excuse. but then i wouldn't buy if that was the case.
Basically i think it boils down to morals and money. those that rip us off should be exposed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i salute the author of the article and the AVI boss who brought it to his attention. Maybe its not in the industry's own interest to debate this however
[quote user="al7478"]Just a musing - would someone look in some speakers and think "the parts are cheap as chips, the markup is ridiculous, yet i can afford them, and like the sound, so ill buy 'em", or would they not buy 'em...? i understand the point about the standard of the parts, but what i mean is, its hard to apply in the real world, unless we can trust companies not to rip us off.[/quote]
I dont care about the internal component choice as such, as long as it sounds good thats fine with me. What I do find annoying is when I spend thousands and the bits that I can see or interface with are not up to scratch such as in my previous posting. There's no excuse for that.
[/quote]
on reflection, i was talking nonsense. i agree with you, and i also think that my answer to my own question is: if i tried all the speakers in my budget, and knew that the cheapest was also the best vfm (in terms of parts, profit margins etc), but it sounded carp, would i buy it? No. We all aknowledge that companies have to make a profit and, while we may object to the sheer amount of that profit, we make allowances for a product that makes us happy. quite simple when i think of it that way.[/quote]
i think we should be able to expect not being ripped off . here's a difference paying a premium for a product and being blantantly ripped off.
drummerman - i agree totally about outward fascia not being up to scratch. no excuse. but then i wouldn't buy if that was the case.
Basically i think it boils down to morals and money. those that rip us off should be exposed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i salute the author of the article and the AVI boss who brought it to his attention. Maybe its not in the industry's own interest to debate this however
N**m amp has 50 watts per channel, costs 725. Entry level cd player costs 850. I'm pretty sure Ashley James has this brand in mind, see http://www.avihifi.co.uk/ 4th consumer's comment. Can't be coincidence.Please bear in mind that this isn't necessarily my own opinion.EDIT: Ashley James even suggests that an apple mini computer can sound better than an a***m cd92. Remains to be seen...interestanding standpoint for launching a heated debate...I'm actually beginning to understand why Ashley doesn't like to be on shows- with claims like these, you won't make many friends among collegues!
[quote user="fr0g"][quote user="tractorboy"]
Finally, may I note that it was a very interesting article, although two hyperlinks to RS don't do anything to help its credibility.[/quote]
There were hyperlinks to all the named companies as far as I could see. Even the BBC do that.[/quote]
I wasn't suggesting foul play, just that it could potentially look a bit suspect given that one paraphrase of the article could be "buy budget kit and keep the rest of your cash in the bank. Oh, and by the way, here's where to do it." But no, I didn't think there was actually anything dodgy here. Apart from the editor of that website's judgement perhaps.
Finally, may I note that it was a very interesting article, although two hyperlinks to RS don't do anything to help its credibility.[/quote]
There were hyperlinks to all the named companies as far as I could see. Even the BBC do that.[/quote]
I wasn't suggesting foul play, just that it could potentially look a bit suspect given that one paraphrase of the article could be "buy budget kit and keep the rest of your cash in the bank. Oh, and by the way, here's where to do it." But no, I didn't think there was actually anything dodgy here. Apart from the editor of that website's judgement perhaps.
[quote user="Solomon1"]N**m amp has 50 watts per channel, costs 725. Entry level cd player costs 850. I'm pretty sure Ashley James has this brand in mind, see http://www.avihifi.co.uk/ 4th consumer's comment. Can't be coincidence.
Please bear in mind that this isn't necessarily my own opinion.
EDIT: Ashley James even suggests that an apple mini computer can sound better than an a***m cd92. Remains to be seen...interestanding standpoint for launching a heated debate...I'm actually beginning to understand why Ashley doesn't like to be on shows- with claims like these, you won't make many friends among collegues!
[/quote]
This guy has got balls of Steel. Hell, they're probably made from kryptonite! In any case the fact he brought it up brings scrutiny on his won company's products so he obviously means what he says. i love the fact he's sticking up for us the consumers. if we hiifi heads are not stupid then we deserve respect. At least we know he does.
Ps i dont any AVI products and do not know Ashley James. oh And there are no hyperlinks here to anywhere at all.
Please bear in mind that this isn't necessarily my own opinion.
EDIT: Ashley James even suggests that an apple mini computer can sound better than an a***m cd92. Remains to be seen...interestanding standpoint for launching a heated debate...I'm actually beginning to understand why Ashley doesn't like to be on shows- with claims like these, you won't make many friends among collegues!
[/quote]
This guy has got balls of Steel. Hell, they're probably made from kryptonite! In any case the fact he brought it up brings scrutiny on his won company's products so he obviously means what he says. i love the fact he's sticking up for us the consumers. if we hiifi heads are not stupid then we deserve respect. At least we know he does.
Ps i dont any AVI products and do not know Ashley James. oh And there are no hyperlinks here to anywhere at all.
Yeah, promoting your company's products by slagging off all the riivals - very constructive...
But bless him for running his own operation as a charitable foundation
But bless him for running his own operation as a charitable foundation
Mr E, in your professional experience, is it common to find budget internals used for premium kit?
[quote user="Andrew Everard"]
Yeah, promoting your company's products by slagging off all the riivals - very constructive...
But bless him for running his own operation as a charitable foundation
[/quote]
WOah! ok point taken. I didn't say he was the ultimate angel and that he gives free away equipment to the homeless! just that
at the very minimum his comments deserve our attention. the fact he was antagonistic is by the by. As for him being critical of the magazines? I didnt take him seriously on that issue. we all LIKE WHF and others, afterall, we do BUY them!!!
Anyway thanks for the response.
Yeah, promoting your company's products by slagging off all the riivals - very constructive...
But bless him for running his own operation as a charitable foundation
[/quote]
WOah! ok point taken. I didn't say he was the ultimate angel and that he gives free away equipment to the homeless! just that
at the very minimum his comments deserve our attention. the fact he was antagonistic is by the by. As for him being critical of the magazines? I didnt take him seriously on that issue. we all LIKE WHF and others, afterall, we do BUY them!!!
Anyway thanks for the response.
[quote user="JAXON5"]oh And there are no hyperlinks here to anywhere at all.[/quote]Just go to the avi website and scroll down on the home page...then read Avi Adm9 buyers' comments.
There was that Goldmund expos‚ not too long ago where someone posted pictures of the internals of a Goldmund cdp. The components were that of a budget Pioneer player, allegedly.
As an aside, and this will be of interest to you Frog, this thread took less than 4 minutes to appear on Google.
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