Disappointing Sound Quality from Ripped CDs

[Hugh50]

After much research I decided to rip all my CDs (using dbpoweramp), expecting the sound quality to be near comparable to playing CDs. The files are ripped in flac5 and stored on a Synology NAS drive. The files are streamed through a Sonos Connect through the digital connection using a van den hul 'the first' phono cable into a NAD M51 DAC. The comparison is with a TEAC P-30 Transport, connected to the DAC using the same cable type. As the DAC onwards is the same system, I doubt it's relevant, but for refence it is a pair of Chord monoblocks feeding WB Act 1 speakers.

The ripped files were shown as being perfect rips by dbpoweramp. However, all music sounds a little flat. When I play the file on a CD there is a huge difference in quality: Far more musical, much greater soundstage and depth, improved bass (depth and control) and indeed across the frequency range.

Why is there such a huge difference? Is this a limitation of the Sonos, even though it's only used as a music manager and to pass the music from NAS drive to DAC? or are digital files not the perfection they're supposed to be?

 

[Native_bon]

After much research I decided to rip all my CDs (using dbpoweramp), expecting the sound quality to be near comparable to playing CDs. The files are ripped in flac5 and stored on a Synology NAS drive. The files are streamed through a Sonos Connect through the digital connection using a van den hul 'the first' phono cable into a NAD M51 DAC. The comparison is with a TEAC P-30 Transport, connected to the DAC using the same cable type. As the DAC onwards is the same system, I doubt it's relevant, but for refence it is a pair of Chord monoblocks feeding WB Act 1 speakers.

The ripped files were shown as being perfect rips by dbpoweramp. However, all music sounds a little flat. When I play the file on a CD there is a huge difference in quality: Far more musical, much greater soundstage and depth, improved bass (depth and control) and indeed across the frequency range.

Why is there such a huge difference? Is this a limitation of the Sonos, even though it's only used as a music manager and to pass the music from NAS drive to DAC? or are digital files not the perfection they're supposed to be?

I have got all my music & movies stored on a Synology Nas drive & my experience is the total opposite to what you are experiencing. I dn't know much about Sonos so cn't comment bout that. I use the normal windows player for ripping. (WAV LOSSLESS)

 

[davedotco]

Firstly, see if you can check the output levels, your description of the contrast in performance could easily be the result of the CD player option being a dB or so louder. Such a small difference is rarely percieved as a change in volume, it just sound crisper and more focussed.

Secondly, if you have not done so, check the settings on the Sonos, make sure the output is set to fixed. If you are still getting the same results then it may well be that you are hearing the limitations of the Sonos Connect. Given that the fixed output of the Sonos should be 'bit perfect' I am at a loss to say why this should be the case, but some people insist that, by the highest standards, the Sonos Connect does not quite 'cut the mustard' sonically.

 

[CnoEvil]

If you have a perfect rip, then that is not the problem....in fact, I have found, all things being equal, that it sounds better than a CD. This is because a CDP has to read the CD on the hoof, whereas the the ripping process can take as long as it needs. Also a CDP has a motor spinning away, which can add "noise" into the environment.

Like DDC, I'd be looking at the Sonos as the weak link. I recommend you try a Linn DS, but others are available.

 

[busb]

If you have a perfect rip, then that is not the problem....in fact, I have found, all things being equal, that it sounds better than a CD. This is because a CDP has to read the CD on the hoof, whereas the the ripping process can take as long as it needs. Also a CDP has a motor spinning away, which can add "noise" into the environment.

Like DDC, I'd be looking at the Sonos as the weak link. I recommend you try a Linn DS, but others are available.

Spot on - a decent rip should sound no worse or even better for the reason stated. I don't consider Sonos to be HiFi any more than I would a B+W Zepplin or an iPhone.

 

[Dom]

Try ripping a song in WAV or AIFF.

 

[The_Lhc]

If you have a perfect rip, then that is not the problem....in fact, I have found, all things being equal, that it sounds better than a CD. This is because a CDP has to read the CD on the hoof, whereas the the ripping process can take as long as it needs. Also a CDP has a motor spinning away, which can add "noise" into the environment.

Like DDC, I'd be looking at the Sonos as the weak link. I recommend you try a Linn DS, but others are available.

Spot on - a decent rip should sound no worse or even better for the reason stated. I don't consider Sonos to be HiFi any more than I would a B+W Zepplin or an iPhone.

So a bit-perfect output from an optical connection is no longer "hi-fi"?

 

[The_Lhc]

Firstly, see if you can check the output levels, your description of the contrast in performance could easily be the result of the CD player option being a dB or so louder. Such a small difference is rarely percieved as a change in volume, it just sound crisper and more focussed.

Secondly, if you have not done so, check the settings on the Sonos, make sure the output is set to fixed. If you are still getting the same results then it may well be that you are hearing the limitations of the Sonos Connect. Given that the fixed output of the Sonos should be 'bit perfect' I am at a loss to say why this should be the case, but some people insist that, by the highest standards, the Sonos Connect does not quite 'cut the mustard' sonically.

This one, I'd be willing to bet the volume on the Connect is turned down.

 

[denontillidie]

i have found that flac is inferior to wav when listening to hi-res music. Try a couple of differnet codecs like wma lossless and even wav on one song and see. but would highly recommend starting with wav and working backwards, as this will eliminate the loss factor on the files and point you towards any other potential problems with your set up.

 

[busb]

If you have a perfect rip, then that is not the problem....in fact, I have found, all things being equal, that it sounds better than a CD. This is because a CDP has to read the CD on the hoof, whereas the the ripping process can take as long as it needs. Also a CDP has a motor spinning away, which can add "noise" into the environment.

Like DDC, I'd be looking at the Sonos as the weak link. I recommend you try a Linn DS, but others are available.

Spot on - a decent rip should sound no worse or even better for the reason stated. I don't consider Sonos to be HiFi any more than I would a B+W Zepplin or an iPhone.

So a bit-perfect output from an optical connection is no longer "hi-fi"?

If it's bit-perfect & jitter is not too high it should be OK & I'd be wrong but a number of dealers have suggested leaving Sonos alone for serious listening. I presume volume adjustment is applied at the endpoint?

 

[busb]

i have found that flac is inferior to wav when listening to hi-res music. Try a couple of differnet codecs like wma lossless and even wav on one song and see. but would highly recommend starting with wav and working backwards, as this will eliminate the loss factor on the files and point you towards any other potential problems with your set up.

Flac should sound the same as wav surely? Both are lossless but flac embeds metadata where wav does not.

 

[Hugh50]

Thanks for the suggestions; I'll try them out when I can; probably tomorrow and report back. One thing I've always wondered is whether a rip could be as good as a high end CD Transport, for the simple reason that reading a CD on a computer drive can't be as good as a dedicated CD Transport, or there'd be no difference between a cheap Transport and an expensive one, which I know from experience that there is.. Hopefully my logic is wrong and I can get the ripped music to sound much better; even getting close would be nice!

 

[The_Lhc]

If you have a perfect rip, then that is not the problem....in fact, I have found, all things being equal, that it sounds better than a CD. This is because a CDP has to read the CD on the hoof, whereas the the ripping process can take as long as it needs. Also a CDP has a motor spinning away, which can add "noise" into the environment.

Like DDC, I'd be looking at the Sonos as the weak link. I recommend you try a Linn DS, but others are available.

Spot on - a decent rip should sound no worse or even better for the reason stated. I don't consider Sonos to be HiFi any more than I would a B+W Zepplin or an iPhone.

So a bit-perfect output from an optical connection is no longer "hi-fi"?

If it's bit-perfect & jitter is not too high it should be OK & I'd be wrong but a number of dealers have suggested leaving Sonos alone for serious listening.

And I expect their "serious" alternatives are somewhat more expensive. I can't imagine for a minute why any dealer would recommend something like that...

Jitter, assuming you believe it's audible, shouldn't be a problem for any decent modern dac.

I presume volume adjustment is applied at the endpoint?

Although Sonos is strictly 16-bit the output is actually 24-bit, giving it 8-bits of volume control before the signal is interfered with in any way, so you can turn it down pretty low before anything should change. Fixed volume is 100% output, so is bit-perfect, hence the recommendation here to use Fixed and adjust the volume with the amp's volume control.

 

[The_Lhc]

Thanks for the suggestions; I'll try them out when I can; probably tomorrow and report back.  One thing I've always wondered is whether a rip could be as good as a high end CD Transport, for the simple reason that reading a CD on a computer drive can't be as good as a dedicated CD Transport, or there'd be no difference between a cheap Transport and an expensive one, which I know from experience that there is..  Hopefully my logic is wrong and I can get the ripped music to sound much better; even getting close would be nice!

I'm afraid your logic is wrong, any CD transport is capable of reading the data from a CD perfectly, and the PC has the advantage that it can make multiple passes to ensure it gets all the data. A decent ripping program can then compare the checksums of the rips with an online database. If your checksum is the same as 200 people around the world there's very little chance of you having anything other than a perfect rip.

 

[busb]

Thanks for the suggestions; I'll try them out when I can; probably tomorrow and report back. One thing I've always wondered is whether a rip could be as good as a high end CD Transport, for the simple reason that reading a CD on a computer drive can't be as good as a dedicated CD Transport, or there'd be no difference between a cheap Transport and an expensive one, which I know from experience that there is.. Hopefully my logic is wrong and I can get the ripped music to sound much better; even getting close would be nice!

I'm not expert on ripping but depending on the software used & its settings, the ripping process can re-read the disc whereas a CD transport has to extract the data on one pass in realtime. CD/CDRs do have some quite sophisticated error correction built-in to the red book standard. Merely playing a CD using a computer as the transport may well sound inferior but ripping should at a minimum, sound no worse when done with decent software.

 

[andyjm]

One thing I've always wondered is whether a rip could be as good as a high end CD Transport, for the simple reason that reading a CD on a computer drive can't be as good as a dedicated CD Transport, or there'd be no difference between a cheap Transport and an expensive one, which I know from experience that there is..

A rip using dBpoweramp will be bit perfect unless it flags up a checksum error. A CD transport may or may not be bit perfect.

An error free dBpoweramp PC rip will be as good as the best transport money can buy, and may well be better.

 

[andyjm]

Although Sonos is strictly 16-bit the output is actually 24-bit, giving it 8-bits of volume control before the signal is interfered with in any way, so you can turn it down pretty low before anything should change.

True for the analogue output, but the OP is using the digital output. Clearly the digital information has to be 'interfered with' or the volume would remain the same. Using the digital volume control in the Connect in this manner will degrade the sound quality of the digital output.

Your advice about setting the output to fixed will ensure there is no loss of quality.

 

[BigH]

Is there a way to play the rips without the Sonos. Rips should be as good as the cd, so I suspect there is something amiss between the rip and the DAC. You could try ripping the rip to a cd and then playing it on your cd transport see how that sounds. Also check the levels are the same.

 

[Hugh50]

Thanks for the suggestions; I'll try them out when I can; probably tomorrow and report back. One thing I've always wondered is whether a rip could be as good as a high end CD Transport, for the simple reason that reading a CD on a computer drive can't be as good as a dedicated CD Transport, or there'd be no difference between a cheap Transport and an expensive one, which I know from experience that there is.. Hopefully my logic is wrong and I can get the ripped music to sound much better; even getting close would be nice!

I'm afraid your logic is wrong, any CD transport is capable of reading the data from a CD perfectly, and the PC has the advantage that it can make multiple passes to ensure it gets all the data. A decent ripping program can then compare the checksums of the rips with an online database. If your checksum is the same as 200 people around the world there's very little chance of you having anything other than a perfect rip.

Any CD Transport may be capable of reading the CD perfectly, but the sound can get appreciably better with more expensive Transports. I remember being amazed at the improvement from adding a PSX-R external power supply to a Cyrus Transport.

As the CDs were ripped perfectly (well nearly all of them) without any correction needed, the files should be perfect, so hopefully I'll get the high quality. I fear it's the Sonos that's the weak link, though it does has volume control on, so perhaps that's the main factor.

 

[Hugh50]

Is there a way to play the rips without the Sonos. Rips should be as good as the cd, so I suspect there is something amiss between the rip and the DAC. You could try ripping the rip to a cd and then playing it on your cd transport see how that sounds. Also check the levels are the same.

Any know if there's a way to play the rips without the Sonos? Can I feed the Synology directly to the DAC. it does have it's own music management system?

Regarding the levels,that's definately not the problem; the difference in the musicality, soundstage and depth were far too significant.

 

[expat_mike]

Thanks for the suggestions; I'll try them out when I can; probably tomorrow and report back. One thing I've always wondered is whether a rip could be as good as a high end CD Transport, for the simple reason that reading a CD on a computer drive can't be as good as a dedicated CD Transport, or there'd be no difference between a cheap Transport and an expensive one, which I know from experience that there is.. Hopefully my logic is wrong and I can get the ripped music to sound much better; even getting close would be nice!

I'm afraid your logic is wrong, any CD transport is capable of reading the data from a CD perfectly, and the PC has the advantage that it can make multiple passes to ensure it gets all the data. A decent ripping program can then compare the checksums of the rips with an online database. If your checksum is the same as 200 people around the world there's very little chance of you having anything other than a perfect rip.

+1

If computer CD drives retrieved the data on a CD with less than 100% accuracy, then they would have been useless as a means to distribute software during the 1990s and 2000s, because all the programs would have been riddled with corrupt data.

 

[BigH]

Is there a way to play the rips without the Sonos. Rips should be as good as the cd, so I suspect there is something amiss between the rip and the DAC. You could try ripping the rip to a cd and then playing it on your cd transport see how that sounds. Also check the levels are the same.

Any know if there's a way to play the rips without the Sonos? Can I feed the Synology directly to the DAC. it does have it's own music management system?

Regarding the levels,that's definately not the problem; the difference in the musicality, soundstage and depth were far too significant.

Can you not connect the Synology to the DAC with USB cable?

 

[davedotco]

Is there a way to play the rips without the Sonos. Rips should be as good as the cd, so I suspect there is something amiss between the rip and the DAC. You could try ripping the rip to a cd and then playing it on your cd transport see how that sounds. Also check the levels are the same.

Any know if there's a way to play the rips without the Sonos? Can I feed the Synology directly to the DAC. it does have it's own music management system?

Regarding the levels,that's definately not the problem; the difference in the musicality, soundstage and depth were far too significant.

That is interesting.

Given the generally high quality of modern hi-fi electronics when used correctly, I would expect any genuine differences to be quite small and subtle.

Seeing as they are not, then I think something, somewhere is not right. Until you have tried the comparison with levels precisely matched, I would not rule out variations in level.

 

[The_Lhc]

Although Sonos is strictly 16-bit the output is actually 24-bit, giving it 8-bits of volume control before the signal is interfered with in any way, so you can turn it down pretty low before anything should change.

True for the analogue output, but the OP is using the digital output.  Clearly the digital information has to be 'interfered with' or the volume would remain the same. Using the digital volume control in the Connect in this manner will degrade the sound quality of the digital output.

Your advice about setting the output to fixed will ensure there is no loss of quality.

 

https://en.community.sonos.com/troubleshooting-228999/zp80-output-specifications-4362?postid=50615

This post explains, 8 years ago, how the zp80 (the Connect's predecessor) gives volume control down to -48db without losing any audio data.

 

[ID.]

Time to switch to vinyl