Diminishing Returns.

[admin_exported]

Having only ever used budget equipment, I wonder about more expensive equipment and in particular, what quality of sound one gets at what price point. This is compounded by the problem that unless one is serious about buying equipment from a shop one is not afforded the luxury of sitting around all day listening to their gear. I literally don't know how good it might sound!

So would someone with experience like to take a stab at the following problem:

Assuming there is diminishing returns i.e. one perhaps gets 90% of ultimate sound at, plucking an amount from my head, £2000 for C.D., amp and speakers and thereafter pay ever larger amounts gaining the last few percent of sound quality. What might the various price point/percentages be?

e.g. £1000/50% £2000/90% £10,000/95% etc.

I know it's subjective and possibly a little mad, but would anyone like to have a go?

 

[Anonymous]

Hello there

I'll have a quick go based on your pricing:

£1000 = 75%

£2000 = 95% then:

£4000 = 98%

I've based that on my experiences (and budgets) over the years, for detail, sound just the way I like it, bass weight, treble, volume, power, grip, reality and soundstage (whatever you think soundstage is.....). That budget includes cables, but not racks, stands etc.

But I could play the advocate and say - whatever sounds good to you, at whatever budget, should be it. I think there is too much made of the upgrade thing personally.

Next........

 

[Lost Angeles]

£1000/75% £2000/80% £10000/85% £20000/87.5% £30000/89%

Edit I typed this before reading the previous post

 

[the record spot]

You can get a very high standard of replay for little outlay today; try not to get too suckered into the "spending more" to get a better sound. Very often higher end doesn't deliver, can be as much a design statement as anything else and not for the first time is that fancy bit of hardware nothing but a large and mostly empty box with a name that carries the price tag as much for its cache as it does sonic ability.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks so far. Consensus at £1000/75%. It will be interesting to see if any general agreement transpires!

 

[jaxwired]

Great topic!

I would expect almost no consensus on this, LOL. People that have very expensive gear will tend to feel the gear is well worth it.

However, I think everyone will agree that there are diminishing returns. Or another way of saying this is that if you were to graph sound quality and price, it would not be a straight line.

The other thing to consider is that price and value are not consistent among products. So it might be possible to find a £1000 amp that performs a the typical level of £2000 amps.

 

[Anonymous]

Wow, my modest setup has cost me in the region of 400 pounds and Im very, very happy with it...call it maybe 90% judging by the above Im actually only about 50% there haha. I guess it's subjective though, plus I've never experienced a 1000 Pounds and beyond system...maybe I should.

 

[matthewpiano]

the record spot:You can get a very high standard of replay for little outlay today; try not to get too suckered into the "spending more" to get a better sound. Very often higher end doesn't deliver, can be as much a design statement as anything else and not for the first time is that fancy bit of hardware nothing but a large and mostly empty box with a name that carries the price tag as much for its cache as it does sonic ability.

Great post.

I think it is very difficult to apportion percentages to this but I will say that I doubt I could easily improve on the musical enjoyment I get from my current system.

 

[Anonymous]

bloody ell.

no freekin way this is going to end well.

 

[Lost Angeles]

Lost Angeles:£1000/75% £2000/80% £10000/85% £20000/87.5% £30000/89%

Edit I typed this before reading the previous post

I should have added £175000/99.3%

I base this on the £35000Scarlatti CDP, £50000 Bowers Nautilus speakers, one £10000 pre amp and 8 £10000 monoblock power amps, I have never heard any of them but would think it should sound pretty good. Well, would it have good synergy? I have no idea.
If anyone has a system that would sound better please invite me around for a listen, I will bring the wine and CDs..

 

[the record spot]

It might look good, but sound it? Well, maybe, but would it sound £35k good? Hmmm....I'd like to hear but convinced that it's worth the outlay? Well, I did say design statement earlier on when it comes to this kind of thing...

 

[batonwielder]

Too many numbers...

Buy what sounds good within your budget.

 

[Craig M.]

don't know about percentages at various price points, but i reckon with competently designed stuff you need to double your budget each time you upgrade to get the same sort of leap in performance each time. not sure at what point that would cease to be.

 

[the record spot]

This assumes you go down the route of thought that says the only way to improve is to spend more. I'm not hugely convinced of that to be fair - speaker positioning, understanding the sound you like and the purchases you make based around that are but two examples.

No offence to anyone who holds the former view, but I'm listening to the Undertones debut album on the excellent Union Square re-release just now, my system's below. Not too sure what I'd need to do or spend in order to make the kind of step-up people often talk about. And without wishing to rock any boats, here's a good example from a decade or two ago...

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:This assumes you go down the route of thought that says the only way to improve is to spend more. I'm not hugely convinced of that to be fair - speaker positioning, understanding the sound you like and the purchases you make based around that are but two examples.

No offence to anyone who holds the former view, but I'm listening to the Undertones debut album on the excellent Union Square re-release just now, my system's below. Not too sure what I'd need to do or spend in order to make the kind of step-up people often talk about. And without wishing to rock any boats, here's a good example from a decade or two ago...

http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

RS - great post, really thought provoking. In addition we shouldn't discount the importance of the listening environment, the quality of production and most importantly the absolute requirement to retain face by justifying economic outlay to sceptical partners on sonic grounds (following which you end up believing your own propaganda because all other paths lead to madness). Funny, so far I've thought the biggest differences came right at the start of my personal hi-fi journey from changing a very cheap Cambridge Audio CDP to a much older but almost equally cheap Technics CDP, and also DEFINITELY swapping out the pre-packaged interconnects. Beyond this, and whilst I unreservedly do enjoy my current equipment, I think the law of diminishing returns kicked in for me, so without running up an RBS style deficit I'm wondering how easy it is to get a step change in sound by swapping any single component. I'll probably still swap my speakers in time, but more from an "I've started so I'll finish" point of view, than from any deeply-held belief that I'll attain sonic nirvana.

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:You can get a very high standard of replay for little outlay today; try not to get too suckered into the "spending more" to get a better sound. Very often higher end doesn't deliver, can be as much a design statement as anything else and not for the first time is that fancy bit of hardware nothing but a large and mostly empty box with a name that carries the price tag as much for its cache as it does sonic ability.

This is one of the best statements/replies I have seen on this forum and concerning Hi-fi in general.

Brilliant Good Job

 

[Anonymous]

the record spot:This assumes you go down the route of thought that says the only way to improve is to spend more. I'm not hugely convinced of that to be fair - speaker positioning, understanding the sound you like and the purchases you make based around that are but two examples. No offence to anyone who holds the former view, but I'm listening to the Undertones debut album on the excellent Union Square re-release just now, my system's below. Not too sure what I'd need to do or spend in order to make the kind of step-up people often talk about. And without wishing to rock any boats, here's a good example from a decade or two ago... http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf

Couldn't agree more.....................................It took me a long time to realise that I like kit that sounds quite "poppy".

I have in the past spent more money in the hope "my sound and better quality was out there". only to realise that I'd already had a great setup two steps back.

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed.

But I would add: You might even get worse sound quality for more money.

If you define SQ in technical terms like low distortion and flat frequency response, that is.

And if you're defining SQ in more obscure ways, and are searching for the best 'sound stage', 'picture', 'dimensions' and so on, you'll get more results by experimenting with positioning and room acoustics, than by buying new equipment.

 

[Anonymous]

Fahnsen:

Agreed.

But I would add: You might even get worse sound quality for more money.

If you define SQ in technical terms like low distortion and flat frequency response, that is.

And if you're defining SQ in more obscure ways, and are searching for the best 'sound stage', 'picture', 'dimensions' and so on, you'll get more results by experimenting with positioning and room acoustics, than by buying new equipment.

I know exactly what you mean.....I once had a couple of days wondering if a bit of kit was going wrong such was the weirdness of the sound. I thought something was going very wrong!

I moved my right hand speaker literally 2cm and everything became good again and not just from the listening postion but from every part of the room. Oh yes.....................Speaker positions are now marked with tape on the floor. (even though my wife thinks I'm mental.)

So I guess. If you are not happy with your sound. It's very good advice to spend some hours or even days getting the speaker position right and looking at the rest of the room acoustics.........such as soft furnishings,carpets, curtains,rugs...etc.........Just opening a pair of heavy curtains can change a rooms acoustics dramaticaly(for better or worse).

It could save you £1000's....................very ... very good results can be obtained from budget kit. After all.....most music is mastered to sound great on every day kit.....car stereo's, doctor's surgery speakers,,,,,,,,Lets face it. In reality most people listen to music on simple, low cost equipment. In the days when I was still in the studio we used to check track mixes on various car stereo's parked outside and on an old bush all in one cd player and a terrible PA system.

D

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks all, some interesting reading. It looks like I can at least save money by keeping my amp and speaker wire! It would be fascinating if more people had a go at the price point against sound quality equation if only to see if there is any consensus.

 

[Anonymous]

P.S. What about you What Hi-Fi people!

 

[Anonymous]

It does diminish significantly the higher up the food chain you go...

Was looking at getting a better sound than I have now, and went to test a few higher end amps, speakers and cd players out. Worked out that to hear a huge jump in sound, I have to double or a bit more what my kit is worth.

As I am now on the dole, and havemoved in with my Lady, there is 2 hopes for me getting what I would like, and what the bank manager does not want me to have.

There within lies the problem.... We all are chasing to see what else is out there even if we are happy with the kit and sound we have (which I am a lot), but to get it means either selling my kidneys, or robbing 1000 pentionors of their heating tokens.

When you start off, a 1000 set up can be reached quite easily when your working, but when you get a house, wife, kids etc etc, then money goes else where, so we have to be happier with what we got, and dream about what other nice shiney things are out there

 

[Anonymous]

PS I cleaned the whole carpet as I have time on my hands, and being my GF's biatch. When I put the speakers and stands back, they were in a slightly different place, and now the whole soundstage is better.

Just goes to show, that not all upgrades have to cost more than a small child sells for in china

 

[Anonymous]

Sometimes good things happen when you get down on your hands and knees. ! You didn't even have to go shopping to get the best out of your kit.

And what's more your other half must be so chuffed you might get a reward.

 

[Anonymous]

£1000 = 5%

AVI ADM9.1 = 98%

£2000 =.01%

£5000 = .01%

At least, assuming one believes the hyperbole currently spinning round the internet!