Difference between Directional & Non Directional Speaker cable?

[matengawhat]

I know what your saying about AC current - it moves constantly back and forth - all I was saying is I keep mine the same way round just something I've always done - no science behind it - but is it not inconceivable that the more you use it the better it gets to some extent as each particle becomes more flexible until reaching its optimum limit of movement?

 

[Anonymous]

matengawhat:

I know what your saying about AC current - it moves constantly back and forth - all I was saying is I keep mine the same way round just something I've always done - no science behind it - but is it not inconceivable that the more you use it the better it gets to some extent as each particle becomes more flexible until reaching its optimum limit of movement?

I think you should read up on how electricity is conducted in wires. There is nothing that can "align", "burn in" or indeed change in any way. Even if there was, it wouldn't explain how a cable could sound different (with an AC signal) if you connected it the other way round.

The industry likes to push a "music flows through cables like water flows through pipes" kind of analogy, but it is an utterly false comparison. Trouble is it's easy to understand, so people cling to it rather than investigate the (more complex and difficult) truth.

There is a nugget of truth behind the directionality of interconnects which are screened and grounded at one end - so-called "semi-balanced" designs. As usual in audio, the concept is then blindly expanded to include mains and speaker cables where the same effect just can't happen.

Any of the technical bods from the mag care to comment?

 

[aliEnRIK]

I must admit that if the entire circuit is ac then directionality is certainly questionable

Heres a quote from (I know people hate them but regardless...) Monster Cable ~

" Connectors such as the RCA type and mono ¬" are considered Unbalanced
connectors; due to their two contact surface areas, the tip and the
sleeve. (Connectors such as XLR, TRS ¬" (Tip/Ring/Sleeve,) etc. are
considered Balanced.) A coaxial cable terminated with an unbalanced
connector, uses the conductor as the positive lead, terminated to the
Tip, and the shield as the negative lead, terminated to sleeve. Monster
Cable makes our Unbalanced cables,
"Semi-balanced" by utilizing twisted pair cable. We use one conductor
as the positive lead, terminated to the Tip, one conductor as the
negative lead, terminated to the sleeve, and we terminate the shield to
the Source side of the cable; thereby making the cable directional.
The theory goes, if you ground the shield at the Source end and leave
it open to "Drain" at the Destination end, any noise or interference
which enters the shield, will be kept from making its way into your
destination device. Source is considered where the signal is
originating from, (think in terms of your signal flow,) Destination is
considered the device to which your signal is going."

So at least thats some sort of plausible explanation for interconnects

Heres Russ Andrews but he doesnt even mention ac

A lot of cable manufacturers 'claim' theyve blind tested their cables for directionality which is why theyre marked up. As for an actual explanation as to why............

Just a personal comment ~ as hifi is ac. Then the speaker coil is 'pushing' then 'pulling' alternately. Whos to say directionality wont effect that to some small degree? (Ie ~ if the PULL is stronger than the push of the speaker cone then it might be slightly better quality overall due to the engineering principles behind how loudspeakers work)

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK: Just a personal comment ~ as hifi is ac. Then the speaker coil is 'pushing' then 'pulling' alternately. Whos to say directionality wont effect that to some small degree? (Ie ~ if the PULL is stronger than the push of the speaker cone then it might be slightly better quality overall due to the engineering principles behind how loudspeakers work)

If it was out of balance in this way, it would sound dreadful. Half of the sound would be louder, leading to a kind of distortion waveform overlaid on the sound. This kind of directionality could ONLY make the sound worse, whichever way round it was.

 

[aliEnRIK]

Bin Clankem:
aliEnRIK: Just a personal comment ~ as hifi is ac. Then the speaker coil is 'pushing' then 'pulling' alternately. Whos to say directionality wont effect that to some small degree? (Ie ~ if the PULL is stronger than the push of the speaker cone then it might be slightly better quality overall due to the engineering principles behind how loudspeakers work)

If it was out of balance in this way, it would sound dreadful. Half of the sound would be louder, leading to a kind of distortion waveform overlaid on the sound. This kind of directionality could ONLY make the sound worse, whichever way round it was.

It would only sound 'dreadful' if it was really bad. Im talking about MINUTE differences

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK:Bin Clankem:

aliEnRIK: Just a personal comment ~ as hifi is ac. Then the speaker coil is 'pushing' then 'pulling' alternately. Whos to say directionality wont effect that to some small degree? (Ie ~ if the PULL is stronger than the push of the speaker cone then it might be slightly better quality overall due to the engineering principles behind how loudspeakers work)

If it was out of balance in this way, it would sound dreadful. Half of the sound would be louder, leading to a kind of distortion waveform overlaid on the sound. This kind of directionality could ONLY make the sound worse, whichever way round it was.

It would only sound 'dreadful' if it was really bad. Im talking about MINUTE differences

Even minute differences would change the waveform at the speakers compared to the recorded waveform, which is always bad. The best possible cable would have to conduct identically in both directions, ie be non-directional.

This is not a strong forum for technical knowledge, is it?

 

[aliEnRIK]

Bin Clankem:aliEnRIK:Bin Clankem:

aliEnRIK: Just a personal comment ~ as hifi is ac. Then the speaker coil is 'pushing' then 'pulling' alternately. Whos to say directionality wont effect that to some small degree? (Ie ~ if the PULL is stronger than the push of the speaker cone then it might be slightly better quality overall due to the engineering principles behind how loudspeakers work)

If it was out of balance in this way, it would sound dreadful. Half of the sound would be louder, leading to a kind of distortion waveform overlaid on the sound. This kind of directionality could ONLY make the sound worse, whichever way round it was.

It would only sound 'dreadful' if it was really bad. Im talking about MINUTE differences

Even minute differences would change the waveform at the speakers compared to the recorded waveform, which is always bad. The best possible cable would have to conduct identically in both directions, ie be non-directional.

This is not a strong forum for technical knowledge, is it?

Interesting answer.

So youve actually MEASURED this have you with extremely sensitive equipment and can catagorically say that a speaker coil behaves absolutely EXACTLY the same wether its being pulled or pushed right down to its molecular level?

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK:Bin Clankem:aliEnRIK:Bin Clankem:

aliEnRIK: Just a personal comment ~ as hifi is ac. Then the speaker coil is 'pushing' then 'pulling' alternately. Whos to say directionality wont effect that to some small degree? (Ie ~ if the PULL is stronger than the push of the speaker cone then it might be slightly better quality overall due to the engineering principles behind how loudspeakers work)

If it was out of balance in this way, it would sound dreadful. Half of the sound would be louder, leading to a kind of distortion waveform overlaid on the sound. This kind of directionality could ONLY make the sound worse, whichever way round it was.

It would only sound 'dreadful' if it was really bad. Im talking about MINUTE differences

Even minute differences would change the waveform at the speakers compared to the recorded waveform, which is always bad. The best possible cable would have to conduct identically in both directions, ie be non-directional.

This is not a strong forum for technical knowledge, is it?

Interesting answer.

So youve actually MEASURED this have you with extremely sensitive equipment and can catagorically say that a speaker coil behaves absolutely EXACTLY the same wether its being pulled or pushed right down to its molecular level?

The coils have nothing to do with it. If they behaved asymmetrically, you would have to match the asymmetry of the cable EXACTLY to the coil - but in antiphase - to restore the symmetrical, undistorted signal. So your "directional" cable would need to be an exact match to your "directional" coil, or it would make things worse. However, the coils are designed to behave symmetrically and there is no reason to believe they don't. There is also no physical mechanism to account for the cable directionality that you postulated in your initial post.

You are rushing off into more and more extreme and unlikely hypotheses about how things MIGHT behave - with no evidence or theoretical knowledge to back it up, just supposition piled upon flight of fancy.

Why not just accept that directionality is marketing? Is it a sacred cow, or something?

I'm off back to a more sensible forum now!

 

[aliEnRIK]

I work in the aerospace industry and if theres one thing our research and development do its NOT take things for granted

But sure ~ you goto your other forum.......

 

[Andrew Everard]

Bin Clankem, if you can't participate without insulting the forum and its members, you won't be missed...

 

[idc]

Well I liked Bin Clankem, but I will talk to anyone and have rhino hide. I bet that Bin's unnamed other forum could do with a bit of livening up and that we would find it a bit dull.

Anyway, there is a bit of a reoccuring theme that new members pop up, state and certainly appear to have good scientific/technical knowledge. But then, when they get questioned about their resposes they get somewhat annoyed and become insulting. It suggests that they are domineering and over sensitive, sad.

At least we have Trevor and his detailed knowledge on matters of electricity. Are there any other scientifically and technically qualified people who regularly contribute to the forum?

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:
Well I liked Bin Clankem, but I will talk to anyone and have rhino hide. I bet that Bin's unnamed other forum could do with a bit of livening up and that we would find it a bit dull.

Anyway, there is a bit of a reoccuring theme that new members pop up, state and certainly appear to have good scientific/technical knowledge. But then, when they get questioned about their resposes they get somewhat annoyed and become insulting.

I have no problem when someone states that hifi is driven by AC. But when someone says pushing and pulling on a speaker coil amount to the EXACT same forces right down to the molecular level (And given that cones are shaped like they are) I have to question it.

 

[up the music]

I too liked Bill Clanken. I thought I'd found a reaonable explanation of why cables are/can become directional with this grain and atomic jumping thing. having been reminded that speaker cable passes AC current I'm less sure. I just have more to think about now. I guess I'm back on the fence but leaning slightly to the skeptical side.

I have posted previously a quote from a QED employee where he basicallly states that cable directionality is bunkum. The marketing department persist with putting arrows on cables because it alienates customers when you tell them their cherished notions of directionality are plain wrong.

Come back Bill, but be patient with us dunderheads.

 

[ESP2009]

It seems to me that Gareth's posting (No.4 in this thread, I believe) was accurate about the worms. Not sure if they're the ones from Tremors or from Dune but they're feisty blighters! Having browsed intermittently through various threads and postings, I can see that topics such as this recur both in general theme and result. Numerous calls for some kind of definitive blind test seem sensible, but will, I fear, never ultimately satisfy everyone.

Given the numerous variables involved in a hi-fi setup, with so many factors that can influence the sound, be it in a purpose-built listening room, or the average living room, just how do you reliably test cables and such accessories for a definitive answer? Never mind convincing the believers and non-believers, the deaf and the daft! )

 

[Anonymous]

raym87:Most would say none. I aint saying anything for fear of my life.

Aint it great being right....

 

[ESP2009]

I dunno - it's an unfamiliar experience!

By the way, Raym87, I see you have the MA BR2 speakers. What are they like as far as positioning goes? Do they need to be sited away from walls or room corners? Are they worth considering for partnering my Audiolab and Marantz?

 

[idc]

up the music: I have posted previously a quote from a QED employee where he basicallly states that cable directionality is bunkum. The marketing department persist with putting arrows on cables because it alienates customers when you tell them their cherished notions of directionality are plain wrong.

My original speaker cable was QED and I am sure it stated that directionality did not matter. I was glad of that because I did not know what directionality was. So the marketing pressure must have taken over. Did they or do any other cable manufacturer say how they decide which way round a directional cable should go?

 

[Anonymous]

ESP2009:
I dunno - it's an unfamiliar experience!

By the way, Raym87, I see you have the MA BR2 speakers. What are they like as far as positioning goes? Do they need to be sited away from walls or room corners? Are they worth considering for partnering my Audiolab and Marantz?

I can't really say about matching Audiolab or Marantz as I havent heard them with that gear. Maybe worth doing a search or post a new topic. I have my BR2 on either side of a large bay window so directly behind the speaker is the end of the window curtain . I would say they are positioned in a quite open position but they sound OK to me. I am sure I could get deeper bass if I moved them further into the corners on either side of the bay but I would rather have a tight bass rather then a flabby deeper bass.They are front ported so considering the rear placement should have little effect. I think they are very good and I am quite happy with them. No plans to change.

 

[Anonymous]

Has anyone on the forum noticed any significant difference then between directional and non directional cable?

Or is it just high price equipment it can be noticed with?

 

[Anonymous]

Oh just plug it in, have a listen, and then try it the other way and compare.

Personally I have found (with my lug holes) time and time again that Burn in on cables and newly introduced components is real.

I am not driven by wanting to split the Atom in my lounge but by enjoying the music and films in the best possible manner.

I have no quandary with my family if they think a tweak is rubbish, as I agree with them. (providing proper burn in time has occurred)

 

[Anonymous]

There is something that has been missed and is concerning me a great deal. Lets say you have a directional interconnect connecting the source to the amp, what if some of the friendly electrons get permanently waylaid. What happens then? I mean, as you've got your jumping atoms and this field of loose electrons (someone invite me to this club it sounds fun) what happens if some of the electrons fail to re-join the atoms in the cable? Would you lose a bit of the signal, next time you play something down your directional interconnect? This is a real worry. Because frankly, I can't be dealing with an electron search. It would be too stressful having to whip out my tunnelling electron microscope to try and find them. And no-one has mentioned the importance of choosing the correct house for the electrons in their cable school. We all know the impact getting the wrong house at school can cause. Some electrons are sportier than others and may make the distance with an advantage over their brothers. Perhaps this is why some cables sound brighter than others? They have more sporty electrons. It all goes to show, you have to enquire of the head and make sure you pick the right house or your electrons progress could be seriously held up. Heavens forbid. Stairway to Heaven may have newfound meaning.

 

[ESP2009]

Will Harris:Some electrons are sportier than others and may make the distance with an advantage over their brothers. Perhaps this is why some cables sound brighter than others? They have more sporty electrons.

That's strange, I always thought that brighter cables would have fewer of the sportier electrons as they tend to be intellectually challenged (usually producing the kind that play football). Of course, more expensive cables may have the brighter sporty electrons...

 

[Anonymous]

ESP2009:
Will Harris:Some electrons are sportier than others and may make the distance with an advantage over their brothers. Perhaps this is why some cables sound brighter than others? They have more sporty electrons.

That's strange, I always thought that brighter cables would have fewer of the sportier electrons as they tend to be intellectually challenged (usually producing the kind that play football). Of course, more expensive cables may have the brighter sporty electrons...

Good point. Not forgetting that electrons wearing Adidas Predators may curve considerably and stray off course. This could explain why SkyHD viewers occasionally see snow on the screen during Premiership matches. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Of course, Discover Channel, would never suffer such curved electrons, being much smarter all round.