Devialet or Pure Class A

[iceman16]

I have heard the Devialet briefly at the Bristol show but was'nt really impressed. It maybe because of the room acoustic(hotel room) and the matching speakers(can't remember). Yes it's very detailed and sparkly but it lacks warmth and emotion compared to class A. Im not closing the door to it though and still on top of my lists, who knows.

 

[DocG]

However there is another alternative, not Class D - and its a Pure Digital design that has no need for a DAC.

This is it.

I have not heard one, but after buying one product which is exceptional from this company and reading through the site, speaking to them and knowing what I do about the stuff he is doing its a very interesting company I think. They have certainly got a different way of thinking to the norm which is appealing to me.

Amps with PCM to PWM conversion are built by NAD too: their DD (Direct Digital) amplifiers, like the C390 DD. The same kind of amp is used in the BlueSound players (Powernode, Vault and Duo) Opalum uses it too, both for their own active speakers, and for the active AudioVectors (Discreet). If you want to hear that concept, the NAD is easiest to find for a demo, I think.

EDIT: actually, Lyngdorf used the concept in their Millennium amplifier in 1998...

 

[ellisdj]

I didnt know there was other similar designs, sounds like a good idea to me, however - some of those you mention dont seem aimed at high end audio depsite what the website says I cant see wireless solutions ever being that good but I could be wrong. Their other speakers look impressive / interesting

I have never been drawn to NAD - dont know why

As I said I am a Class A preferer as it stands however I still think its a good idea keep an eye out for Core Audio as I think they are going to do well even if its mostly very high end products they sell.

 

[iceman16]

I didnt know there was other similar designs, sounds like a good idea to me, however - some of those you mention dont seem aimed at high end audio depsite what the website says I cant see wireless solutions ever being that good but I could be wrong. Their other speakers look impressive / interesting

I have never been drawn to NAD - dont know why

As I said I am a Class A preferer as it stands however I still think its a good idea keep an eye out for Core Audio as I think they are going to do well even if its mostly very high end products they sell.

Hi Ellis,

what class A amp do you own atm? can't see on your sig. or im blind?

 

[matt49]

I cant see wireless solutions ever being that good but I could be wrong.

I think the Devialet wireless AIR connection sounds outstanding, and on SQ terms alone I'd be happy to use it.

Matt

 

[andyjm]

I am a class A preferer as they have been the best amps I have heard to date.

However there is another alternative, not Class D - and its a Pure Digital design that has no need for a DAC.

This is it.

It is a class D amp. The marketing you link to is misleading. Class D defines the output topology - in this case a switching output. How the PWM signal that controls the output switches is derived does not define the class of amplifier. This is true for the NAD direct drive amp as well - also class D.

 

[ellisdj]

I didnt know there was other similar designs, sounds like a good idea to me, however - some of those you mention dont seem aimed at high end audio depsite what the website says I cant see wireless solutions ever being that good but I could be wrong. Their other speakers look impressive / interesting

I have never been drawn to NAD - dont know why

As I said I am a Class A preferer as it stands however I still think its a good idea keep an eye out for Core Audio as I think they are going to do well even if its mostly very high end products they sell.

Hi Ellis,

what class A amp do you own atm? can't see on your sig. or im blind?

?

 

Yeah its in there Bryston 9BSST but have heard a better class a amp.

I will ask Ryan at Core to define why his amps are not class d.
I.dont see why he would mislead - if you watch the videos its quite the opposite.

 

[iceman16]

I cant see wireless solutions ever being that good but I could be wrong.

I think the Devialet wireless AIR connection sounds outstanding, and on SQ terms alone I'd be happy to use it.

Matt

Hi Matt

Have you heard the AMS35i with the Dali Epicon 2, 6 or 8 at all? Sorry mate Im just quite intrigue? I did hear the Epicon 2 with Linn at the Bristol show and far more convinced..

 

[iceman16]

I cant see wireless solutions ever being that good but I could be wrong.

I think the Devialet wireless AIR connection sounds outstanding, and on SQ terms alone I'd be happy to use it.

Matt

Hi Matt

Have you heard the AMS35i with the Dali Epicon 2, 6 or 8 at all? Sorry mate Im just quite intrigue? I did hear the Epicon 2 with Linn at the Bristol show and far more convinced..

I think It's the Klimax ds if Im not mistaken coupled with Dali Epicon 2.

 

[matt49]

Hi Matt

Have you heard the AMS35i with the Dali Epicon 2, 6 or 8 at all? Sorry mate Im just quite intrigue? I did hear the Epicon 2 with Linn at the Bristol show and far more convinced..

Hi iceman,

The only Epicon I've heard is the 6. I demoed it with my Devialet 200, and there were two other speakers running in the same demo: Audiovector Si3 Avantgarde and Paradigm Signature S6. I really liked the Audiovectors a lot, but not the Paradigms, which seemed to suffer from a mucky top end. My thoughts about the Epicon 6s are copied below.

I do really rate Dali, and the Epicon 6s are a great all-round package. I thought at the time that the Epicons would be in the final shoot-out at home, but then I heard the Martin Logans and everything changed ...

Matt

Dali Epicon 6

I think these speakers look lovely — obviously not Sonus Faber lovely, but a nice mixture of smooth lines and simplicity. It’s also worth noting that they’re very deep, I mean in terms of their physical dimensions, so the enclosure is really very big, and certainly much larger than the Audiovectors.

It was an odd experience listening to the Dalis, because my reaction changed from ‘meh’ to ‘ooh, nice’ over the course of half an hour’s listening. Initially I had doubts about a bit of flatness in the upper mid range. They didn’t seem as sweet and airy as the Audiovectors (to say nothing of my SFs). I felt they were failing to fully capture the timbre of acoustic instruments. I also thought there was something slightly scratchy at top end

But … the Epicons are certainly very involving dynamically, rhythmically and spatially. They’d be amazing as front speakers in a surround-sound AV system. And with opera they were quite stunning: hugely dramatic, a real sense of sitting in front of a stage with stuff going on all around, from side to side of the stage, from back to front, and also up and down.

The more I listened to them, the more their natural musicality grew on me. Solo grand piano did really sound ‘grand’: a huge instrument. And there was no sacrificing of high-frequency information or sweetness.

After a first listen to all three speakers, I revisited the Audiovectors and Dalis. The thinness of the Audiovectors’ bass was striking: they are sweet and transparent speakers, but I began to feel that the Dalis beat them for overall musicality.

So a very interesting and perhaps slightly confusing demo. I suspect the Dalis may just be a bit too big and bold for my room, and that the Audiovectors might suit the space better. But the Dalis are certainly very competitive, and they deserve a home demo.

 

[ellisdj]

I didnt know there was other similar designs, sounds like a good idea to me, however - some of those you mention dont seem aimed at high end audio depsite what the website says I cant see wireless solutions ever being that good but I could be wrong. Their other speakers look impressive / interesting

I have never been drawn to NAD - dont know why

As I said I am a Class A preferer as it stands however I still think its a good idea keep an eye out for Core Audio as I think they are going to do well even if its mostly very high end products they sell.

Hi Ellis,

what class A amp do you own atm? can't see on your sig. or im blind?

Yeah its in there Bryston 9BSST but have heard a better class a amp.

I will ask Ryan at Core to define why his amps are not class d. I.dont see why he would mislead - if you watch the videos its quite the opposite.

[/quote

As promised this is the explanation to the above

Hey Terry,

A class D amplifier takes an analog input, converts it to a triangle wave and then to a pulse width modulation. The signal is amplified as a PWM square wave and then is demodulated to drive your speakers. Like with all things audio there are dozens of ways to do an output stage for a pwm amplifier.

With our amplifier we take a pcm input and convert it directly to a pwm. So there is no DAC at all and no analog. Though if you want to be analytical about it, all digital square waves are analog voltages.

That pwm signal is amplified and goes through a demodulation stage to drive your speakers.

So the only thing in common with class D is that it has a pwm output stage.

That's like saying all DACs sound the same just because they are pcm converters.

The pcm to pwm conversion is substantially lower distortion than analog to pwm assuming the right jithering algorithms are used.

Plus... our power supplies are really what make our amps sound the way they do. That's the most critical element.

 

[DocG]

Well, that's a semantic discussion. What he says, is that most class D amplifiers take an analogue signal (like B&O's ICE modules, or Hypex), while his design is all digital. Just like NAD, Opalum, Lyngdorf and what have you.

But most will still classify this 'PCM-to-PWM amplifier' as class D, be it digital class D.

As I stated earlier, Peter Lyngdorf already used this concept in the nineties. And I'm not sure he was the first to try it (though he was the first to be successful with it). So this amp is not that revolutionary. Unless the power supply is (what he suggests). I don't know the details about that...

 

[ellisdj]

I mentioned it because I think it is an alternative solution to Class A or a hybrid like Devialet so it was worth mentioning.

Others companies have done the same sort of design so there is obvious merit in it - but like everything it depends on the implementation and as Ryan says Power Supply quality which is always top of the list of importance.

Shame Core are not more present in the UK at the moment as I would like to hear more of theeir kit especially his new speaker cables.

The one product I have bought from them so far is exceptional in my mind and its one of the cheapest

 

[andyjm]

As promised this is the explanation to the above

Hey Terry,

A class D amplifier takes an analog input, converts it to a triangle wave and then to a pulse width modulation. The signal is amplified as a PWM square wave and then is demodulated to drive your speakers. Like with all things audio there are dozens of ways to do an output stage for a pwm amplifier.

With our amplifier we take a pcm input and convert it directly to a pwm. So there is no DAC at all and no analog. Though if you want to be analytical about it, all digital square waves are analog voltages.

That pwm signal is amplified and goes through a demodulation stage to drive your speakers.

So the only thing in common with class D is that it has a pwm output stage.

"So the only thing in common with class D is that it has a pwm output stage" - which is exactly why it is a class D amplifier.

This sort of semantic blathering comes up when amplifier manufacturers try to imply that they have something new, groundbreaking, different, you name it as a marketing gimmic. If you check out class D on wikipedia (I cant seem to copy links anymore) it describes the various mechanisms for generating the PWM control signal for the output drivers on a class D amp. One of those methods is the direct transfer of a S/PDIF signal to the PWM drive waveform without going via an analogue intermediate step. Exactly the mechanism proposed here.

 

[ellisdj]

So categorically it may come under Class D according to that - but its not a typical Class D in terms of design and it is a fully digital system that does away with the Dac completely. Obviosuly simialr has been done before, nowhere did I or any where does it say it is revolutionary. Its just says what it does and why - I like this approach.

This is still a different option to consider I think to typical dac preamp setups in the context of this type of debate hence why I brought it up

This is a recent show review gives an insight to what the co. is all about.

I can only go by 1 product experience so far which has proved excellent in the very limited time I had to listen before major building works commenced at my home.

But I know a bit about what he is doing to the computer digital tarnsport and this is all excellent work and no doubt will be an amazing source for any system. This gives me a fait bit of brand confidence already so I thought I would make others aware. This is how we all find out about new things after all

 

[DocG]

I agree it's worth mentioning a new brand on the forum. What could be wrong with that?

And I agree that a well-designed digital amp has certain advantages, like the possibility to do some DSP wizardry without signal loss (think Lyngdorf RoomPerfect), and indeed keeping the noise floor low.

As for the article you refer to: I really believe in the combination of high sensitivity speakers and powerful amps with a very low noise floor. The combo on demo must have been amazing in this respect!*ok*

 

[Covenanter]

I mentioned it because I think it is an alternative solution to Class A or a hybrid like Devialet so it was worth mentioning.

Others companies have done the same sort of design so there is obvious merit in it - but like everything it depends on the implementation and as Ryan says Power Supply quality which is always top of the list of importance.

Shame Core are not more present in the UK at the moment as I would like to hear more of theeir kit especially his new speaker cables.

The one product I have bought from them so far is exceptional in my mind and its one of the cheapest

They talk about a "high bandwidth" power supply. What the **** is one of those?

Chris

 

[ellisdj]

I mentioned it because I think it is an alternative solution to Class A or a hybrid like Devialet so it was worth mentioning.

Others companies have done the same sort of design so there is obvious merit in it - but like everything it depends on the implementation and as Ryan says Power Supply quality which is always top of the list of importance.

Shame Core are not more present in the UK at the moment as I would like to hear more of theeir kit especially his new speaker cables.

The one product I have bought from them so far is exceptional in my mind and its one of the cheapest

They talk about a "high bandwidth" power supply. What the **** is one of those?

Chris

I think that is an indicator of the noise level filtration that is done within the power supply, but not 100%. Designed to filter noise from the mains. There are some very interesting videos on the site that mentions a lot about this topic

Again please if anyone buys a product please say EllisdDJ recommended you - Much Appreciated

 

[gowiththeflow]

I didnt know there was other similar designs, sounds like a good idea to me, however - some of those you mention dont seem aimed at high end audio...........

I have never been drawn to NAD - dont know why........

The NAD Master Series must have passed you by then?

Apart from a NAD 3020 thirty years ago, I also have never been drawn or attracted to any NAD products. In more recent times, their "sound" was not to my liking either. However, I've recently aquired one of their M2 Digital amps, which was certainly aimed at the "high-end" and seems have received universal praise from all corners of the audio press, particularly those covering the "high-end".

I believe the M2 works just like the other "direct digital" class D amps mentioned above, PCM to PWM to class D switching. No DAC, no analogue interconnect, no analogue pre-amp etc etc. If I've got that right chaps?

Two of the speakers I'm hoping to demo in the next 2 or 3 weeks, will be at a Devialet dealer. He currently uses one of those speaker models to demo the Devialet and has suggested I bring the M2 down as well. While he sings the praises of the Devialet (of course he would, naturally) he thinks I will be pleasantly surprised with the performance of the M2, compared with the Devialet. Using the SAM feature may alter that though? It will be interesting.

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/nad_m2_direct_digital_integrated_amplifier/

http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/nad-m2-pound;5000/7554

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/nad-m2-direct-digital-amplifier-tas-198-1/

.

 

[DocG]

Two of the speakers I'm hoping to demo in the next 2 or 3 weeks, will be at a Devialet dealer. He currently uses one of those speaker models to demo the Devialet and has suggested I bring the M2 down as well. While he sings the praises of the Devialet (of course he would, naturally) he thinks I will be pleasantly surprised with the performance of the M2, compared with the Devialet. Using the SAM feature may alter that though? It will be interesting.

Which speakers do you talk about? Are they SAM-ready in the first place?

And yes, you are correct about the M2 using the same PCM to PWM conversion (and about the M2 being high-end too

)!

 

[Rethep]

I'm more interested in a comparison between the Devialet and a very good tube-amp!

 

[gowiththeflow]

Which speakers do you talk about? Are they SAM-ready in the first place?

Sonus Faber Venere 2.5 (not getting good reports on this forum so far) - SAM ready

KEF R700 not yet SAM ready

I might give the B&W CM10 's a go if there's time - SAM ready.

.