Dark Integrated Amplifier

kaudmeter

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Hello,

I am looking for dark sounding integraed amplifier within 600e (780$) new or second hand.

Currently I have Yamaha S-A500, first it sounded amazing, but after couple weeks it start hurting my ears with the high frequencies. Playing with loudness knob helps, but doesn't solve the problem. With my previous amplifier (with was way worse then yamaha, actually it was just a some very old music center (all in one even with tape deck!)) i had no issues what so ever.

After this expirience I understand I need something dark. I don't want to change the speakers so far. As I believe even if I change them the issue won't go away (I had same issue with portable rig, bought better player (Colorfly CK4) and couldn't listen my headphones (ATH-ESW10) anymore after couple weeks - high frequncies hurt my ears).

Thanks for advice!
 

Singslinger

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Not sure what you mean by "dark" - as opposed to "bright" perhaps? Also you don't mention what speakers you are using, which might be helpful.

If I had to guess, I'd recommend a Naim amp which in my experience is, er not bright.
 

drummerman

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I would be inclined to try one of the latest Naim's too. They are not 'bright'. The price you pay, depending on speakers used, is a somewhat contained sound stage. The image is more solid and driving but less 'above and beyond' the speaker boundaries.

regards
 

kaudmeter

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Yes, exactly. Dark means as opposed to birght. High fequencies are not dominating.

Speakers are audio pro stage 22 (fronts of surround set) with rel quake MKI subwoofer.
 

Fulci

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It could be the speakers fault too. Also, what speaker cables are you using? Avoid anything silver plated like Qed and try some good cheap copper cables like Rega Quattro and see if improves.
 

SpursGator

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I know you said you didn't want to mess with your speakers, but they are almost certainly the source of a great deal of your brightness. Almost any amp is going to sound bright with this setup. Why? Well, brightness is always a risk when you try to pair a small set of satellites with a big subwoofer. It doesn't really work very well for hifi. The small cones of the sats can only do so much when it comes to midbass and lower midrange, no matter how hard you drive them, and the sub is no help above 150 Hz or so. So you end up with a depressed frequency response in the midbass, then rising as you get higher. This is the frequency response curve of brightness - many speakers strive for the 'BBC dip,' which is more or less the opposite - a very gentle downhill slope towards the treble. And then on top of this, the Audio Pros that you are trying to pump more midbass from have metal dome tweeters, which tend to be...bright, especially when overdriven.

I highly recommend trying a pair of proper hifi, and not home cinema, speakers before you go and start buying amps. The Naim Nait 5 (not 5i - I have one bought in 2002) currently can be had for around 200 quid on eBay. I think it's a splendid example of the kind of amp you are talking about. However, I don't think you'll be happy because while nobody would call the amp bright, it can be a little harsh - not a good attribute for a bright speaker setup with metal dome tweeters.

I don't think your Yamaha has to sound bright, but since you are open to used, you could easily replace both the amp and the speakers for your budget. You could still run the sub if you want, just find some sats with bigger cones and soft dome tweeters.
 

BigH

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NAD. Arcam. Maybe Marantz.

What source are you using?

I don't think you will get a Naim Nait 5 for £200, there is one not working that is already £211, most working ones seem to be £300-£400.
 
A Bright Sound or a Dark Sound

There seems to be a lot of confusion about how we describe sound. It seems many people these days want what they call a dark sound, but when I delve deeper into what they mean, I realise it may not be the same as what I call a dark sound. I write a lot about saxophone sound, but there seems to be some confusion over terminology, which got me thinking...Dark can be used to mean the same as warm, which some people think of as the opposite of bright. But when I say dark I mean the opposite of light rather than bright (but you might think the opposite of light is heavy). As far as I'm concerned the opposite of a bright sound is a warm sound, but you might well think of a warm sound as the opposite of a cold sound. But then I call a cold tone what some people call a clear tone . On the other hand some people might call that a focussed tone (or a tone that projects). But to some a focussed tone could be an edgy tone or maybe even a centred tone, (which are surely two different things) and then again to others it might be thin, the opposite of which you might say is fat, however it could be argued that this is unfocussed, which is the opposite of what some people call bright. Or you might like a big fat warm dark round sound, the opposite of which is...

http://cafesaxophone.com/entry.php?7-A-Bright-Sound-or-a-Dark-Sound
 

kaudmeter

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SpursGator said:
I know you said you didn't want to mess with your speakers, but they are almost certainly the source of a great deal of your brightness. Almost any amp is going to sound bright with this setup. Why? Well, brightness is always a risk when you try to pair a small set of satellites with a big subwoofer. It doesn't really work very well for hifi. The small cones of the sats can only do so much when it comes to midbass and lower midrange, no matter how hard you drive them, and the sub is no help above 150 Hz or so. So you end up with a depressed frequency response in the midbass, then rising as you get higher. This is the frequency response curve of brightness - many speakers strive for the 'BBC dip,' which is more or less the opposite - a very gentle downhill slope towards the treble. And then on top of this, the Audio Pros that you are trying to pump more midbass from have metal dome tweeters, which tend to be...bright, especially when overdriven.

I highly recommend trying a pair of proper hifi, and not home cinema, speakers before you go and start buying amps. The Naim Nait 5 (not 5i - I have one bought in 2002) currently can be had for around 200 quid on eBay. I think it's a splendid example of the kind of amp you are talking about. However, I don't think you'll be happy because while nobody would call the amp bright, it can be a little harsh - not a good attribute for a bright speaker setup with metal dome tweeters.

I don't think your Yamaha has to sound bright, but since you are open to used, you could easily replace both the amp and the speakers for your budget. You could still run the sub if you want, just find some sats with bigger cones and soft dome tweeters.

Thanks for the detailed and usable advice!

I read some more topics about brightness and it seems your opinion is the right one. I mean changing the speakers. I think I will choose this option as I jsut bought Yamaha amp and I don't want to get invovled into resseling for now.

Could you please reccomend some speakers that will fit the profile, the budget is not as big (as I won't sell the amp) so I would say around $300 and I am very open to the used models.

And i love my subwoofer (which I got just month ago), I had no idea that my favourite tracks has this crazy deep base.

Thanks everybody for the replies!

My source is Sound Blaster Xi-fi smth, I am not really sure, I got it when I bought pc from a friend and so far it's sounds ok. I just got access to money, so I am building my rig slowly.

And I am not that sure anymore what I meant by "dark" sound. It's just my ears hurts from highs and therefore I call this sound bright, and dark is simply opposite to bright. I am not sure how warm sounds as I have never heard it before.
 

SpursGator

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kaudmeter said:
Could you please reccomend some speakers that will fit the profile, the budget is not as big (as I won't sell the amp) so I would say around $300 and I am very open to the used models.

It's a tricky price point - there are so many choices especially in the US, which is where I assume you are. The Boston A26s are only $200 brand new in the US! (That's right.) You could buy those speakers to go with your Yamaha amp and you might never look back. You can do better, though.

There is a pair of KEF Q300s on eBay for around $300 - I sold a pair of these to a friend with a Yamaha amp and it sounds great. They have metal tweeters but certainly are not bright (the treble is restrained and it's best feature is it's midbass). If you didn't have a sub this would be a good rec but I am not sure they are a good fit with the sub as much of their design brief is devoted to making one unnecessary.

I think you should do some hunting on this one. Your amp's abilities are only the tip of the hifi iceberg but it is nonetheless a perfectly competent, clean amp with excellent detail. I have - as you can see from my sig - acquired quite a collection of hifi stuff, much of it through the used market at a fraction of list. The key to it is patience. If you could find a steal price on a pair of ProAc Studio series, or some Totems, you'd have quite a little system. The problem is that they don't come around very often and you need to wait it out until you find something really good ($500 would be a very interesting budget).

kaudmeter said:
My source is Sound Blaster Xi-fi smth, I am not really sure, I got it when I bought pc from a friend and so far it's sounds ok. I just got access to money, so I am building my rig slowly.

Keep your eyes open for a DAC while you are poking around eBay. Going from a sound card to an external DAC is one of the great, shockingly audible early upgrades. Don't miss this. I've had my Benchmark for over ten years, and when I got my hands on the Cambridge DACMagic for my office system I had low expectations. I didn't pay much for it and it's nowhere near the class of the Benchmark. Despite all of this mental bias against it, I still found the improvement in sound when I plugged it into my office computer to be jaw-dropping (the computer fed, at the time, a NAD 326Bee and KEF Q300s).

You are absolutely correct to build 'your rig' slowly! It's the only way to go - not just as pointed out above for used gear. Any audiophile will tell you, their system is never more fun that when they have just made an upgrade. Spreading these upgrades out, over years, and making each individual upgrade a major one (rather than buying a 'system' and then some years late, buying another one), means more upgrades, more enjoyment, and eventually, a far better system, since by buying the bits one at a time, you end up with higher-end stuff.

One more tip for following my approach: used hifi is not only online. Plenty of dealers stock used gear, often very high quality, and they will let you listen to it, guarantee it, and repair it. It's more expensive but a nice middle-risk approach.

Sometimes when people advise buying used on these forums, they apologise, since we generally assume that a healthy hifi industry is dependent on people continuing to buy new stuff. I make no such apologies. One of the reasons that good gear can get such high prices is its residual value. A manufacturer that does not appreciate and encourage a strong second-hand market for its range is building throwaway products. A good used market supports high prices and thus high margins and healthy companies that can continue to push the envelope.
 

SpursGator

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BigH said:
I don't think you will get a Naim Nait 5 for £200, there is one not working that is already £211, most working ones seem to be £300-£400.

That's great news actually since I need to sell a lot of this stuff. Last time I checked I seem to remember it was lower - I didn't think I could get much for this amp.

Not sure I will ever be able to sell it though. For years it was my only amp and I never really loved it. I've since gone on a mad upgrade rush but actually have come to appreciate the Nait 5 now, after the fact. Every time I test a speaker I am always surprised by the venom with which this little 45W amp spews out music. It is far from perfect, I was right about that. But it is remarkable.
 

kaudmeter

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BigH said:
Sounds like you do want warm.

As for speakers I would avoid metal tweeters which can be harsh (bright).

Can you get Wharfedale 121s for $300.

Actually I am living in Holland and we don't have 100 series yet. Only 10s. Whould you still reccomend them?
 

BigH

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HAve not heard myself but they won the WhatHifi group test that is in current edition so worth hearing. If you are in Holland why are you using $s?

You must hear them first, I lot depends on you, the music and the room.
 

BigH

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Yes UK hifi magazine.

Not sure what is available in Holland, you may want to see and then come back with some questions. If you can push the budget upto £500 that will give you far more choice.
 

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