DAC match for NAIM Supernait/Supernait 2

[rainsoothe]

Hey everyone.
(sorry if i'm posting this in the wrong forum section by the way)

So. I auditioned a Supernait a couple of months ago, and i kind of fell under it's spell. Now the Supernait 2 is out, I'm most likely to pull the trigger on either one of them. The DAC used with the Supernait in my listening session was a simaudio moon one (dont know whether it was the 100d or the 300d) and they sounded really good together.

I'm currently using a musical fidelity M1 dac, but i'm thinking it won't do the SN/SN2 justice. As it is difficult or impossible to audition the DACs i'm about to list with the amp or at my place, i'm asking people with previous experience.

So, browsing through several reviews, I arrived to this shortlist:
1. NAD M51 - this seems like the one to own, but I'm wondering how it partners with the SN, since apparently the nad is a bit bass heavy, and the SN is very gutsy. So, anyone experience the NAD into a SN or SN2? Please share impressions
2. Chord Qute HD - not a fan of the auto input select, but hey.
3. Naim DAC V1 - an obvious candidate, since it's... well... obviously...
4. Simaudio Moon (well this one is in another price category, but asking about the soundmatch between the two). Simaudio sounded like a good partner for the Naim. So, having that as a reference point, how would you compare the Simaudio sound to the NAD or even the Naim sound?

Te SN i auditioned was powering a pair of Martin Logan Motion 40 speakers, which i also enjoyed a lot. I know that Naim are now in a partnership with Focal, but if the SN2 sounds a lot like the previous edition, i'm thinking of going with the Martin Logans anyway.

Im mainly listening to Pink Floyd, Porcupine Tree, Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation, Zero 7 and U.N.K.L.E. kinda stuff (the last two are chillout/triphop/electronica for people who don't know them)

My source would be a laptop (and maybe later a streamer) that's gonna convey music from a NAS, and gonna probably use an Audiophilleo 2 USB to S/PDIF converter.

so the questions are these:

A. how do the above mentioned DACs match with either SN/SN2? (i'm asking about both amps to cover a wider range of users
B. what other DACs or even alternative sollutions would you suggest? (like "keep the MF M1 and raise cah for an NDX, you fool!!!" etc)
C. how important is this DSD malarky? 'cause if it's gonna be something that leads to a handful of websites that only have a handful of offers available, then I probably shouldn't bother searching for this featuer. or should I?

D. if i use a streamer (that has a DAC) via ethernet, will it only stream music from my computer or will it be able to also stream all sounds coming from it?

Thank you in advance for any insight.

 

[manicm]

Ok, firstly do you realise the SN1 had a built-in DAC? Yes the DAC has been removed from the SN2. The DAC-V1 is being almost unanimously praised, and I would say it's better than the M1, although costlier.

Also consider the Arcam irDAC - it will play your iPod too.

 

[rainsoothe]

hi. firstly, sorry about formating, i tried to edit it, but somehow it's still screwed up

secondly, yes, i do know the first SN has a built in one, but the dealer guy was probably using the simaudio because the SN one wasn't the bee's knees. i'm only assuming.

i'll give the iRdac a whirl, since the naim dealer is actually selling arcam stuff as well, but i'm trying to move a little higher up the hierarchy

 

[Sospri]

The DAC in the SN1 is very good indeed ( I'm listening to it now ) hear it before you judge it,

As suggesed above if you go for SN2 the DAC V1 is the way to go if you say you want to move up heirachy...............

 

[gurux]

You are quite confused about the digital business and obviously not very familiar with the Naim way.

First of all I would warn you that Naim components work best in a full Naim system. Star earthing, DIN connections, the way they are voiced and tuned together using their own cables, on their stands - I would advise you to read about these things before embracing the black and green side |( .

You can obviously mix and match, some people use for instance Linn streamers in Naim systems but in my experience, if you like the house sound, it's worth keeping everything in the family.

Now the Naim hierarchy can be quite confusing. You have servers (UnitiServe but also HDX wich is a server / ripper / CD player / streamer), pure streamers (like the NDX you mentioned), streamers plus preamplifiers (172XS) and DAC's like V1 (which can also be used as a preamplifier) but also the good old (and in fact better) Naim DAC, previously called NDAC.

So the first question would be: how important is the sound quality for you. The second: how much money are you prepared to spend and the third: how many boxes are you happy to accommodate on your rack?

Now to give you an idea as to what is each doing the DAC's obviously convert digital to analogic, they need a stream of data which can be USB, coaxial, optical, BNC. The old DAC doesn't have a USB input but most computers have an optical output on board these days so you should be alright with streaming anything from your computer whichever you decide to buy. The DAC can also be connected to a CD / DVD / Bluray player, a gaming console / TV / set top box or a streamer. It can be the digital heart of your house, connecting everything together and delivering the same excellent sound quality whatever the source. Between the two, V1 and the old DAC, I would personally go for the DAC unless you absolutely need the USB input, headphone output and preamp capabilities of V1. The old DAC is better at pretty much everything and as soon as you add a decent power supply it challenges NDS. In fact I will tell you that in my opinion, of all the sources mentioned above I think the DAC offers the best bang for the buck and unless money are no issue and you want the absolute best at the moment (that would be the NDS), DAC is better than anything else, V1 and NDX included.

But there is one thing the DAC can't do and that is playing music independently, like a CD player (it actually can do from USB sticks but you don't want to plug and unplug stuff all the time). You will always need something to deliver the digital stream to the DAC, be it a computer or any of the devices mentioned above. There is one "cheaper" black box that can deliver the goods - UnitiServe, but you are looking at two boxes already, DAC and UnitiServe, plus cables, shelf space and so on.

The streamers on the other hand can cover more bases. A streamer like the NDX incorporates a DAC under the hood and has a couple of digital inputs as well so it can be used in several scenarios: as intended, as a streamer of UPnP content from a NAS (a sort of a big bad external hard drive that holds your digital music collection), as a computer DAC if you have a digital output from your soundcard (and if you don't there are inexpensive soundcards that can do it), it also has internet radio and you won't realise how fun it is to use it and how great it sounds on a Naim streamer until you actually use it, plus the best thing of all in terms of convenience - the system automation. You see, Naim components look a bit like dinosaurs, work a bit like dinosaurs and eat quite a bit of power like dinosaurs with their big humming transformers, the requirement to keep them powered on 24 / 7, the jurassic DIN connectivity etc. But if you get a streamer you will step right into the 21 century because you will absolutely need a tablet (I use an iPad) to control it and the great thing is that by means of a little cable the iPad will take control, via the streamer, of the SNait as well. Volume levels, muting, input selection - everything will be easilly accessible from a tablet interface. A swipe of a finger, a comfortable chair and you're done.

But there is always a but. As great as an NDX looks from a specs and feature set point of view, it has one major flaw: it is clearly bested by the DAC in terms of SQ. The difference is palatable, you can live with a darker, warmer, less transparent and detailed sound, in fact some people prefer it to the slightly clinically sounding DAC, but you have to be aware that in pure terms of SQ more can be had for less.

Money no issue, the NDS delievers the same feature set at stellar sound quality, again a big step forward from the DAC, but at 13,000£.

So because I have written too much already (sorry about it!), my recommendation, as a former owner of most Naim components, starting from the entry level separates, through SNait, NDX, DAC etc and ending up with 500 series and NDS, if money and space are at a premium do yourself a favour and get the Naim DAC (not V1) which can be had below 1400 on the SH market. It is only bested by the NDS in the current Naim digital range, it sounds amazing in a Naim environment, it is cheap as chips and it allows you to stay in the family and build a system as intended. Besides I feel that the DAC sound is better suited for the warmish, slightly bloated sound of the SNait than the NDX. In time get a HiLine and later you can try a power supply for the DAC, see what you think.

I would not leave the Naim family, I would not get the V1 unless you absolutely need USB and headphone output, I would not get a streamer unless you have the whole echosystem - NAS with UPnP server, a dedicated switch, a hard wired house etc. And streamers are not exactly easy to set up either. But if you have all that and are happy to proceed the NDX sounds very good with the SNait as well.

 

[rainsoothe]

thanks for your help everyone.

and gurux, thanks for the detailed and useful post. i'm actually less confused then i appear to be, but english isn't my native langauge and there's also a small case of "I'm not sure exactly what i want/need".

Ok, so sound quality is, of course, my main concern - but, as i found out, i'm not one of those seeking hifi that's as neutral as possible, since my main goal is not to monitor stuff I just want to enjoy music, and, after auditioning some stuff in that price range (Jadis Orchestra, a tube amp, then a Sugden (forgot which one, the 21SE i think) and the SN) i felt like the Naim was made the music sound the way i like it. The SN2 (which i'm probably gonna aquire, but only if i like the way it sounds more then the original SN) is a bit of a budget stretch for me, so ofc money is a bit of an issue, otherwise I wouldn't be posting about 1.5k euro dacs and shoot for the NDS instead . That being said, from what you just told me, it's appears it's really worth raising money for a Naim Dac or finding a used one on ebay. I will try to audition it against the Simaudio on the day I buy the Naim, which should be in a month or so (aka not gonna do the test very soon).

Anywho, thanks again for the effort you put in that, it really cleared things a lot for me

 

[Singslinger]

Hello rainsoothe, I use the Benchmark DAC 2 HGC with my SuperNait 2 into a pair of Harbeth Monitor 30.1s. There's an earlier thread asking whether this DAC will be the "new reference'' and although I have no idea what a reference DAC should sound like, I have to say the Benchmark really complements the SN2 very well. Music is much richer, fuller and more detailed.

When I was looking at buying a DAC, I also looked at the Musical Fidelity M6 DAC and the Naim DAC but after a home trial, I went for the Benchmark because it is the cheapest of the lot, can decode DSD and only occupies 1/4 of the space on my shelf as the Naim or MF.

 

[manicm]

I would not leave the Naim family, I would not get the V1 unless you absolutely need USB and headphone output, I would not get a streamer unless you have the whole echosystem - NAS with UPnP server, a dedicated switch, a hard wired house etc. And streamers are not exactly easy to set up either. But if you have all that and are happy to proceed the NDX sounds very good with the SNait as well.

I fail to see your logic in this. The V1 has been universally praised on the whole, not just for its USB connection. You would rather the OP spend 2k on the Naim DAC rather than get at least 85% of the performance, plus unparalleled USB performance of the V1 at about a third of the price??

I also fail to see why you think anything less than the expensive NDX would only be good enough for the SN1/2.

To the OP, you can buy the V1 with confidence, especially if you don't want to get into full-blown streaming - just connect a cheap laptop and you're there. Also, head over to the Naim forums for great advice.

 

[matt49]

To the OP, you can buy the V1 with confidence, especially if you don't want to get into full-blown streaming - just connect a cheap laptop and you're there. Also, head over to the Naim forums for great advice.

Also the V1 DAC has an excellent headphone amp.

 

[rainsoothe]

thanks, manic. I had already made such a topic on the naim forums, and besides an nDAC recommendation, a Teddy Pardo DAC was also suggested. So I guess, funds permitting, when i go buy the SN (2 most likely), i will audition the nDAC, the DAC V1, the Teddy Pardo and a Moon.

 

[rainsoothe]

To the OP, you can buy the V1 with confidence, especially if you don't want to get into full-blown streaming - just connect a cheap laptop and you're there. Also, head over to the Naim forums for great advice.

Also the V1 DAC has an excellent headphone amp.

So does the SN2 from what i understand

 

[spiny norman]

So does the SN2 from what i understand

This review certainly seems to suggest so, and since the author of that one also wrote a review on this site of the DAC-V1 and says in that SN2 article that he uses an orginal SuperNait), he might be in a position to offer some advice if he could ever be EDITEDed to post here these days, now he's busy with whatever it is he's doing now.

What're we supposed to do? Look in the mirror and say his name three times or something? :wall:

 

[gurux]

I fail to see your logic in this. The V1 has been universally praised on the whole, not just for its USB connection. You would rather the OP spend 2k on the Naim DAC rather than get at least 85% of the performance, plus unparalleled USB performance of the V1 at about a third of the price??

I also fail to see why you think anything less than the expensive NDX would only be good enough for the SN1/2.

To the OP, you can buy the V1 with confidence, especially if you don't want to get into full-blown streaming - just connect a cheap laptop and you're there. Also, head over to the Naim forums for great advice.

Because I had them all, because I still have an NDS on my Fraim, because I used my SNait with an NDX and a DAC, separately, together, I used the UnitiServe and the NDX as a transport, I tried the DAC with all power sources from Teddy XPS to 555DR.

Following your logic V1 only delivers 85% of the DAC performance. It retails at 1250£, for that money you can buy a two year old DAC from a dealer. If you are not going to use USB and headphones, you are wasting money and losing 15%.

15% in audio is a lot, I would say an NDX gains less than 15% by powering it with a 3000£ power supply so if you think that 15% is irrelevant it's your problem.

The bare DAC is better than NDX, no question about it unless you have never tried them side by side. I did. But add a power supply to the DAC (even the 700£ Teddy will do nicely) and the DAC gets even better, performing well above its price. Yes, the NDS still plays nicer music but from a pure "hifi" point of view the 555 + DAC combo and the NDS are almost on par.

I tried various DAC's with various Naim systems, in my experience the nicest non-Naim DAC offering similar performance to their own sources was Weiss DAC202. But Weiss DAC202 costs 4600£. In my experience the Benchmark 1 HDR, which I had for about a year, sounded terrible with the SNait. In fact I preferred the integrated DAC of the SNait. Weiss DAC202 performed as well on the SNait as the Naim DAC, almost undistiguishable but at nearly three times the price.

But as you step up the ladder a Naim source in a Naim system makes more and more sense. And the transport itself is not an easy choice, a UnitiServe or a HDX are not equal to an NDX, although doing the same thing and using the same BNC interface, with the RC1 cable.

As for the SNait I didn't have the chance to try the new one but I have to say the old one was quite impressive. It was actually the worst and the best Naim component in their portfolio at the same time, the worst "hifi", humming and hissing, with a warm, fat, bloated sound, poor soundstage, transparency and detail retrieval, but at the same time quite muscular and musical and toe tapping and pleasant for very little money, in a way a 202/200 wasn't. The HiCap DR did help but it didn't cure any of the problems so in my case the 202 / 200 followed shortly.

However if I would start again I would probably stop right here: SNait and DAC, my UnitiServe (although not as good a transport as NDX but better than most), power supplies (I would say a 5-10% difference but if you want to maximize the performance of your electronics, they're worth it).

 

[Sospri]

As for the SNait I didn't have the chance to try the new one but I have to say the old one was quite impressive. It was actually the worst and the best Naim component in their portfolio at the same time, the worst "hifi", humming and hissing, with a warm, fat, bloated sound, poor soundstage, transparency and detail retrieval, but at the same time quite muscular and musical and toe tapping and pleasant for very little money, in a way a 202/200 wasn't. The HiCap DR did help but it didn't cure any of the problems so in my case the 202 / 200 followed shortly.

I find this comment rather strange, I have owned a Snait for about 5 years, and it has never hissed or hummed in its life.

And as for poor soundstage, I find this incredible, I have excellent soundstage and is probably more to do with source than amplifier.....................

 

[gurux]

Try a 202 / 200 or anything better. Then you will probably understand my rather strange comments.

I tried my SNait with everything, from the integrated DAC to the NDS powered by 555 DR. I powered my Ultimatum XLS directly or biamped. I tried all power supplies and I even paid for the DR upgrade. It's an OK sound but the SNait is not exactly HiFi and while it will show you the difference between a Benchmark and nDAC, it will not make the difference between a good and an extremely good source. NDS is wasted on it.

As for the hiss it is variable from machine to machine but they all manifest it to a certain digree. The humming depends on a lot of factors, all toroid transformers hum (including the 5XX series) but the SNait / HiCap combo was in my experience the worst offender and the DR upgrade didn't improve anything.

 

[Sospri]

[quote=gurux

As for the hiss it is variable from machine to machine but they all manifest it to a certain digree. The humming depends on a lot of factors, all toroid transformers hum (including the 5XX series) but the SNait / HiCap combo was in my experience the worst offender and the DR upgrade didn't improve anything.

[/quote

Sounds to me that you ought to get your mains supply sorted...............................