DAC / Computer question?

[matengawhat]

I have recently bought a USB DAC that also has an optical/coaxil input - the spec for the DAC say that the USB DAC is 16bit and the optical/coaxil 24bit - so my quesion is would i get better sound by sending my music wirelessly to my squeezebox then on to the coaxil/optical in than using the computers USB out to dac or would it make no difference?

 

[Anonymous]

Only those with golden ears will hear a difference between 16bits and 24bits.

The wireless connection is probably limited to 16bits as well.

Optical and wireless will have the advantage that your hi-fi system are physically insulated from your computer, so you won't get problems with electrical noise (hum) that might occur if your computer is connected with a metal wire like coax or USB.

 

[The_Lhc]

Fahnsen:Only those with golden ears will hear a difference between 16bits and 24bits.

I think you'll find plenty of people can hear the difference between a 16-bit recording and a 24-bit one.

The wireless connection is probably limited to 16bits as well.

Only if the Squeezebox can't handle 24-bit files, I've no idea whether it can or not but the fact it's using a wireless connection is not going to make any difference as the wireless connection is NETWORK!!

 

[Anonymous]

Fahnsen:
Only those with golden ears will hear a difference between 16bits and 24bits.

or those with a good enough system to resolve the extra detail available with 24bit/96k and above.

 

[matengawhat]

so does anyone know if the wireless will be limited to 16bit because computer is in same room so can always hardwire it if needed to improve things as long as that doesn't result in any noise

 

[idc]

If your source is 24 bit then optical or coax, if it is 16 bit (CDs) then USB, optical or coax. Please try all three and see if you can hear a difference.

 

[The_Lhc]

matengawhat:so does anyone know if the wireless will be limited to 16bit

You have a Squeezebox yes? The question is not whether wireless is limited to 16-bit it's whether the Squeezebox is.

because computer is in same room so can always hardwire it if
needed to improve things as long as that doesn't result in any
noise

Do you actually have any 24-bit files you want to listen to? If you don't the question is irrelevant, however if you use a network connection, either wired or wireless, from the computer to the squeezebox (presumably with a router in between them) there will be no noise introduced as a result of that link.

 

[Anonymous]

Can I hear the diffrerence between Sample-Rates and Bit-Depth's? There maybe more jitter at higher Sample-Rates. Its just listen and listen more. Find where your happiest with your sound. Conversions can add unwanted distortion aswell.

Do you listen too MP3 or Lossless? MP3 should be listened too at the highest Bit-Depth's due to the way its encoded. However its up to you what sounds best.

 

[idc]

It not the greatest of tests, but I have downloaded two 9 second excerpts off the Linn website of 16 and 24 bit tracks. I put them onto itunes (which means itunes converts them) and I cannot tell any difference.

EDIT - this turns out to be rubbish test, so don't try it at home........

 

[The_Lhc]

idc:It not the greatest of tests, but I have downloaded two 9 second excerpts off the Linn website of 16 and 24 bit tracks. I put them onto itunes (which means itunes converts them) and I cannot tell any difference.

You're hardly going to if iTunes is downsampling them to the same thing...

 

[pete321]

All my WMA Lossless music is played from my PC via SPDIF (coax) to my DacMagic. If I play a 24bit/96kHz track the extra definition is clearly more audible. For example, just received a DVD-Audio of Metallica's Black Album today, I ripped the 2-channel MLP layer to 24/96 WAVs and then converted them to WMA Lossless 24/96. When I played that (bitperfect Foobar2000) back-to-back with the CD rip of the album, the extra clarity and quality was instantly apparent from the 24/96 rip.

 

[idc]

Ha, so there is a flaw. I should download WMP and try it there instead. In any case, would I have to change the laptops settings and my USB DAC is 16bit. OK so it is a rubbish test. I didn't think that one through.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:It not the greatest of tests, but I have downloaded two 9 second excerpts off the Linn website of 16 and 24 bit tracks. I put them onto itunes (which means itunes converts them) and I cannot tell any difference.

Eh? You have simply removed 8-Bits from the 24-Bit track. Unless there is a dithering process you will not be able to tell them apart.

 

[pete321]

idc:Ha, so there is a flaw. I should download WMP and try it there instead. In any case, would I have to change the laptops settings and my USB DAC is 16bit. OK so it is a rubbish test. I didn't think that one through.

Plus you're not getting bit perfect playback unless you use something like Foobar2000 with the WASAPI plugin component. If you use WMP, you need to adjust the output to 24bit 96kHz to match the bit depth/sample rate of the source. Using FB2000 in bitperfect mode, my DacMagic's sample rate lights change as per the source material, not so with WMP, you have to change the output manually on the PC according to the source.

 

[pete321]

DomRok: You have simply removed 8-Bits from the 24-Bit track. Unless there is a dithering process you will not be able to tell them apart.

Hi DomRock, I've noticed your signature shows you're using ReClock & Windows 7. Have you been able to get bit perfect playback with WMP using ReClock, I couldn't get it to work on Windows 7 x64. I'm having to use Foobar2000 for bit perfect playback using WASAPI.

 

[Alec]

Is it the case that even in an apple system with itunes, changing the volume changes the "bit perfectness"? I heard tha elsewhere (it may have to do with how you change the volume) and it makes me think, well, if bit perfection is so hard to achieve, and so fragile once attained...

 

[pete321]

al7478:Is it the case that even in an apple system with itunes, changing the volume changes the "bit perfectness"? I heard tha elsewhere (it may have to do with how you change the volume) and it makes me think, well, if bit perfection is so hard to achieve, and so fragile once attained...

I can only comment for a Windows PC, where there are alternatives to get bit perfect playback, although unfortuantely not with WMP on Windows 7 at the moment. So thats why I'm using Foobar2000 for most of my listening which does make a difference with the WASAPI plugin installed, music is more open and detailed.

I know iTunes on my PC is governed by the Windows settings for volume and bit/sample rates, if on a Mac you can adjust the volume from the software, I'd assume that means that it's not going to outputting a bit perfect signal.

 

[Anonymous]

al7478:Is it the case that even in an apple system with itunes, changing the volume changes the "bit perfectness"? I heard tha elsewhere (it may have to do with how you change the volume) and it makes me think, well, if bit perfection is so hard to achieve, and so fragile once attained...

I think "bit perfect" is commonly understood to mean perfect (ie exact copy) reproduction of the original digital signal - bit by bit, byte by byte. So per definition, if the software fiddles with it, it's no longer bit perfect... Whether those changes are damaging or not of course depends on the software. But generally speaking, reducing volume by "digital" methods usually means compressing its dynamic range which is not a good thing. Which incidentally is why studios often work in 24bit resolution which gives a bit more headroom to mess with the material prior to its scaling down to 16 bits for the CD master.

 

[Anonymous]

pete321:
DomRok: You have simply removed 8-Bits from the 24-Bit track. Unless there is a dithering process you will not be able to tell them apart.

Hi DomRock, I've noticed your signature shows you're using ReClock & Windows 7. Have you been able to get bit perfect playback with WMP using ReClock, I couldn't get it to work on Windows 7 x64. I'm having to use Foobar2000 for bit perfect playback using WASAPI.

Yes Bit-Exact is very possible in ReClock.

 

[Anonymous]

Here is a quote from a guy called LeePerry over at SlySoft.
if you leave the output bit-depth/sample rate on "same as input" and use bit-perfect drivers(not realtek/c-media/asus), then yes you should get bit-perfect over KS and WASAPI.

 

[Alec]

Thanks for the replies chaps. Just how badly did i write that question?

 

[Anonymous]

al7478:Thanks for the replies chaps. Just how badly did i write that question?

Its OK, luckily i was listening to Jason Donovan's Sealed With A Kiss.

 

[Anonymous]

Some comments:

Of course it's the streaming device that decides whether you can play 24bit files over a wireless network. Apple's system (AirPort Express, Apple TV) is limited to 16bits. So is most Squeezeboxes -- though I think Transporter might support 24 bit. I don't know about Sonos or more expensive systems. As a rule of thumb, I would say that if the manufacturer does not clearly state that the equipment support 24bits, it's 16bits.

iTunes is 16bit anyway, so imported 24bit files will be converted.

As for hearing the difference, I'm not sure the best of hi-fi systems will help -- most probably your own hearing will be the limitation. There's a Norwegian test showing that no members of a select group of self-appointed audiophiles were able to tell the difference between CD quality (16bits/44.1kHz), high quality MP3, and several other kinds of digital degradation of music files -- not knowing which was which. In this test, there were no difference between people with modestly prized and highly expensive systems (they were all given a CD with the samples, to play on their own systems).

If you want to compare yourself, use a set of good headphones, or a set of monitors in a studio -- with loudspeakers in a normal room, there's simply to much interference from the environment.

 

[The_Lhc]

Fahnsen:Of course it's the streaming device that decides whether you can play 24bit files over a wireless network. Apple's system (AirPort Express, Apple TV) is limited to 16bits. So is most Squeezeboxes -- though I think Transporter might support 24 bit. I don't know about Sonos or more expensive systems.

Sonos is a slightly odd one, the output IS 24-bits wide, however 8 of those bits are used for volume control, according to Sonos, either way the end result is Sonos only supports 16-bit audio (which is a bone of much contention on the Sonos forum incidentally).

I think you're right about the Transporter as well.

 

[Alec]

So, bit perfect isnt much to worry about in a home hifi system? More of a psychological thing like the HD audio lights on a home cinema amp?