Connecting 3m phono cable to TT

[Mclark84]

Hi,

I would like to place my turntable (Project Debut Esprit) in an area of my living room that would require a phono cable of about 3m to the amp (Onkyo A9010).

My question is that is this distance of 3m metres going to work or am I going to need a phono preamp? (The amp does have one but unsure of its limits).

 

[Al ears]

Hi,

I would like to place my turntable (Project Debut Esprit) in an area of my living room that would require a phono cable of about 3m to the amp (Onkyo A9010).

My question is that is this distance of 3m metres going to work or am I going to need a phono preamp? (The amp does have one but unsure of its limits).

Obviously it is preferable to get turntable close to the amp but if this cannot be done then the cheapest option would be the 3m of cable and try it. It should be fine but I can see what you mean about trying a phono preamp as a 'booster'.

I assume your turntable has phono sockets on the back and is not one with a captive lead.

It would seem a bit of unecessary overkill to buy another phono preamp.

 

[nopiano]

If you have captive cables, you can get phono socket to phono plug extensions.

Another phono preamp would not work as you'd apply RIAA equalisation twice, so it would be too bassy. But it shouldn't lose more than a fraction using a decent cable.

 

[Gray]

What's the deal with current MM carts boys? I only ask because I remember a couple of old Ortofon's of mine - the capacitance they saw was critical to the HF performance (Nopiano you may have had a cap. trim switch on the front of your HK amp like I did)

Wasn't it the 'Variable magnetic shunt' principle that made Ortofon's so susceptable to the capacitive loading?

I only say this because the capacitance of coax varies significantly - with the wrong type, 3 metres could add more capacitance than that trim switch used to (and you could easily hear the difference with that)

I agree with Al that ideally the OP would have the TT close to amp and that a phono preamp, though a bit of an overkill, would be a good second choice as a booster. (OP note the output of any external phono preamp would go into a line input on the Onkyo, not its phono input)

If I were you OP, I'd go for high quality coax, preferably with the lowest capacitance (quoted per metre) then compare the sound of the TT with the current and extension leads. We all think it better not to put the low output of a cartridge through 3m of cable, but if you can't hear a difference, no problem.

Alternatively, you might want to get a much better preamp than the one in the Onkyo and use it as a booster so that the majority of the 3 metres is done at line level. You'd also have then have the bonus of not needing to consider a built-in phono preamp with any future amp upgrade.

 

[Al ears]

If you have captive cables, you can get phono socket to phono plug extensions.

Another phono preamp would not work as you'd apply RIAA equalisation twice, so it would be too bassy. But it shouldn't lose more than a fraction using a decent cable.

Just checked and it does not have captive cable.

He wouldn't be applying equalisation twice if cable from phono preamp was to be connected to an Aux input on the amp...... whatever, he doesn't need one anyway ;-)

 

[Al ears]

What's the deal with current MM carts boys? I only ask because I remember a couple of old Ortofon's of mine - the capacitance they saw was critical to the HF performance (Nopiano you may have had a cap. trim switch on the front of your HK amp like I did)

Wasn't it the 'Variable magnetic shunt' principle that made Ortofon's so susceptable to the capacitive loading?

I only say this because the capacitance of coax varies significantly - with the wrong type, 3 metres could add more capacitance than that trim switch used to (and you could easily hear the difference with that)

I agree with Al that ideally the OP would have the TT close to amp and that a phono preamp, though a bit of an overkill, would be a good second choice as a booster. (OP note the output of any external phono preamp would go into a line input on the Onkyo, not its phono input)

If I were you OP, I'd go for high quality coax, preferably with the lowest capacitance (quoted per metre) then compare the sound of the TT with the current and extension leads. We all think it better not to put the low output of a cartridge through 3m of cable, but if you can't hear a difference, no problem.

Alternatively, you might want to get a much better preamp than the one in the Onkyo and use it as a booster so that the majority of the 3 metres is done at line level. You'd also have then have the bonus of not needing to consider a built-in phono preamp with any future amp upgrade.

I acknowledge your point about the extra cable length and capacitance, turntable manufacturers use a cable length of around 0.75 - 1.0m generally........and they have no idea what type of cartridge you are going to fit to that turntable.

I would suggest, in this set-up, trebling that cable length by 3 isn't going to make a noticeable difference. Three metres of cable, as a trial, is going to be a lot cheaper than 2m of cable and a phono preamp. ;-)

 

[nopiano]

If you have captive cables, you can get phono socket to phono plug extensions.

Another phono preamp would not work as you'd apply RIAA equalisation twice, so it would be too bassy. But it shouldn't lose more than a fraction using a decent cable.

Just checked and it does not have captive cable.

He wouldn't be applying equalisation twice if cable from phono preamp was to be connected to an Aux input on the amp...... whatever, he doesn't need one anyway ;-)

Agreed! I just wanted to make sure we didn't solve one problem and create another! Also don't think 3 metres is a problem with capacitance as long as it's something suitable, preferably made for the purpose. Greater risk than slight treble loss would be susceptibility to RFI or other unwanted noises, depending on location.

 

[iMark]

Pro-Ject sell phono cables of up to 492cms. Never heard about any problems with longer cables.

http://project-audio.com/main.php?prod=connectit&cat=boxes&lang=en

 

[davedotco]

The response of many mm cartridges will be affected by increased capacitance, I know Shure and Ortofon are particularly prone to this and probably others are too.

The result is a high frequency rolloff that becomes more pronounced with increasing capacitance. I would expect adding a 3m pair of cables to be audible for that reason. Using low capacitence cable should minimise the effect but whether it is of sufficiant magnitude to be an issue will depend on the cartridge and system.

 

[Vladimir]

There won't be capacitance issue if he runs the two channels in separately shielded cables. If wires run alongside eachother they build up capacitance (like two plates in a capacitor).

You can just buy a standard RCA cable and just split it in half down its length and every 5 inches add some improvized separators. Example 1.5 inch foam blocks held by electricians tape.

Effectively getting this.

 

[davedotco]

Will have capacitance, think of it as a long cylinder formed by the shield, surrounding the conducter. The dielectric between the two will define the inductance which simply increases as the size of the capacitor increases. The longer the cable, the bigger the capacitor. Vlad, what you say might be correct for unshielded cable but not shielded coax.

I once tried a player with extra long leads in a dem room, set up so that it could reach all the amps in that section. Cable length was, in total, 8-10ft and the rolloff was quite obvious so we scrapped the idea.

Clearly cartridge and system dependant but given the cost of a budget phono stage, I would strongly suggest that is the way to go.

 

[Vladimir]

Its not ideal but there will be less capacitance than with a standard cord. Maybe enough for 3m not to be audible. Running the commons separately seems a bit much.

 

[Gray]

Agree davedotco (spam filter wouldn't allow quote of your post)

I'm certain that an extra 3 metres of (any) coax would have a clearly audible effect on the HF of my old Ortofon VMS20E.

Even using CT125 type sat. cable which would only add around 150 pF over 3 metres (and you can't get much lower than that)

 

[Al ears]

Agree davedotco (spam filter wouldn't allow quote of your post)

I'm certain that an extra 3 metres of (any) coax would have a clearly audible effect on the HF of my old Ortofon VMS20E.

Even using CT125 type sat. cable which would only add around 150 pF over 3 metres (and you can't get much lower than that)

If its that critical one wonders why manufacturers fit a one metre cable in the first place

However the OP only wants to add another 2m on top of that. It would, obviously, be less confusing to him if he could simply move the turntable to the amp.

 

[Gray]

Agree davedotco (spam filter wouldn't allow quote of your post)

I'm certain that an extra 3 metres of (any) coax would have a clearly audible effect on the HF of my old Ortofon VMS20E.

Even using CT125 type sat. cable which would only add around 150 pF over 3 metres (and you can't get much lower than that)

If its that critical one wonders why manufacturers fit a one metre cable in the first place

However the OP only wants to add another 2m on top of that. It would, obviously, be less confusing to him if he could simply move the turntable to the amp.

It's surprisingly critical I agree, maybe his cart wouldn't be affected but I know I'd do what you suggest and get that TT closer to the amp!