CD vs vinyl playback

[Friesiansam]

SACD is a big step forward from CD and DSD > 2.8 million sampling is better still.
Vinyl is a lifestyle, it has a physical presence, it gives you a sense of ownership.
Making comparison with digital media misses the point and strikes me as tribalism.
The two can coexist, they bring different things to the listener.

You’re right about the tribalism, something that exists in so many hobbies.

I switched to CD in my twenties, a long time ago now, I was a sucker for new technology but, have never regretted doing so.

 

[good_enough]

CD v Vinyl, the age old question. Just my opinion. I’m a bit of a numb skull with regards the ‘numbers’, and quite frankly I’m not interested, I can only relate my own experience. When it comes to dynamic range, vinyl can’t possibly compete with CD’s. Indeed, I have CD’s that would see the needle jumping out of the groove in an attempt to keep up. Anything on the Telarc label will highlight this. OTOH, I have vinyls that sound so much better than their CD counterparts. For instance, I have Bowie albums on both CD and vinyl, and the vinyls have a presence found lacking on CD. Of course, to get the best out of vinyl generally requires a significant outlay. £’s invested v SQ is definitely in favour of CD, imo. Also, if I want to try listening to something new, it’s easy to just open Spotify and get a fairly faithful reproduction. I would therefore say that I’m fairly open to listen to all methods of listening to music. But, when it comes to experiencing music in a session, not track skipping, albums in their entirety, the medium has to be vinyl, there’s just something wonderful about it.

Yes 'presence' is the word isn't it?

There's a difference between:

1) the recognition that in front of you some equipment is playing a recording of some music; and
2) that 'corblimey' moment when the kit and wall goes away and you are in the presence of the players

Now this can happen with either medium. On CD, I can practically hear Diana Krall open her lips before singing on the CD of Turn Up The Quiet. And Deutsche Grammophon seem to have this magic nailed - the pianos of Vikingur Olafsson or Krystian Zimerman are 'there'.

But over hundreds of LPs and hundreds of CDs (I haven't kept count for ages - they just seem to keep multiplying) this illusion seems to happen more frequently on LP than CD.

And as you say regarding Bowie, this is especially the case for historical releases. Case in point: I bought the 50th anniversary remastered Grateful Dead Live Europe 72 on CD, basically as an easier way to get it onto my phone to play in the car, but obviously compared on the main kit. Not a patch on my original LPs.

Go figure, as they say.

 

[RoA]

It's easier to accept compromises, even mediocracy with vinyl. Expectation bias is normally lower. Even if it sounds s***t you still have a nice cover. It is also easier to forgive the format because of technology/lack of.

Still, it IS a nice media to use and enjoy IF you have money, space and a lot of patience.

 

[nopiano]

As much as I admire those of you for your commitment and enthusiasm to vinyl, it goes way beyond the remit of HiFi, it is very much a lifestyle…

…except to us oldies, for whom it was the best source in the 1970s and 1980s until Compact Disc arrived. Those early CD players, despite their awesome lack of background noise, were not especially compatible with contemporary amplifiers, many of which had too sensitive inputs. These were designed for 0.5 volts from a tuner or cassette deck, sometimes less. Not 2 volts which was the default CD standard.

Accordingly many early players, with remastered analogue CDs more copious that digitally mastered ones, sounded screechy and unyielding to those accustomed to LPs and FM radio as their main sources.

The debate has raged ever since!

For me, I still love the LPs acquired from my late teens onwards, but by the late ‘80s I mostly bought CDs. The last decade I’ve subscribed to Qobuz, and bought no LPs (except a few secondhand bargains) and relatively few CDs as a result. 🙂

I enjoy each format in a different way, rather as I enjoy a pub band as much as a symphony orchestra - they’re both musicians!

 

[Entrigo]

…except to us oldies, for whom it was the best source in the 1970s and 1980s until Compact Disc arrived. Those early CD players, despite their awesome lack of background noise, were not especially compatible with contemporary amplifiers, many of which had too sensitive inputs. These were designed for 0.5 volts from a tuner or cassette deck, sometimes less. Not 2 volts which was the default CD standard.

Accordingly many early players, with remastered analogue CDs more copious that digitally mastered ones, sounded screechy and unyielding to those accustomed to LPs and FM radio as their main sources.

The debate has raged ever since!

For me, I still love the LPs acquired from my late teens onwards, but by the late ‘80s I mostly bought CDs. The last decade I’ve subscribed to Qobuz, and bought no LPs (except a few secondhand bargains) and relatively few CDs as a result. 🙂

I enjoy each format in a different way, rather as I enjoy a pub band as much as a symphony orchestra - they’re both musicians!

Ha. That's probably the source of much of the "I hate digital sound".. I normally don't ever feel like

"OH I HATE THAT. SOUND"

Or

"I LOVE THIS SO MUCH BETTER". There is a difference but it is not much to me. Maybe also as my last two CD players have been Marantz, so naturally a little warmer sounding. But never felt digital to be as cold or unengaging as many others

 

[Entrigo]

Well...

Did a couple more A/B comparisons - using albums which came as both LP and CD - to ensure it's the same mastering etc.

And there is not much in it actually. Yes the CD is a little clearer and more detailed but I think as general sound I don't have a strong preference. Pros and cons for both...

I now think it's more the that I liked the novelty - how the SA8005 digs more bass out of recordings than either the turntable from the LP or the streamer from the digital files...

Maybe just need to find a cartridge which has better bass 😆

 

[Entrigo]

You’re right about the tribalism, something that exists in so many hobbies.

I switched to CD in my twenties, a long time ago now, I was a sucker for new technology but, have never regretted doing so.

No tribalism here. I am a fully inclusive person in every walk of life - and more than happy for my CDs and my LPs to have equal rights and status 😆

As with people, each have their strengths and I will enjoy both for these...

 

[Friesiansam]

No tribalism here. I am a fully inclusive person in every walk of life - and more than happy for my CDs and my LPs to have equal rights and status 😆

As with people, each have their strengths and I will enjoy both for these...

I'm not trying to say you are guilty of tribalism but, as Spike Milligan said, "there's a lot of it about."

 

[camcroft]

Well...

Did a couple more A/B comparisons - using albums which came as both LP and CD - to ensure it's the same mastering etc.

And there is not much in it actually. Yes the CD is a little clearer and more detailed but I think as general sound I don't have a strong preference. Pros and cons for both...

I now think it's more the that I liked the novelty - how the SA8005 digs more bass out of recordings than either the turntable from the LP or the streamer from the digital files...

Maybe just need to find a cartridge which has better bass 😆

Have you ever heard about the RigB ( Rigid Body ) mod for your cartridge it makes a big difference to the sound.

 

[twinkletoes]

Well...

Did a couple more A/B comparisons - using albums which came as both LP and CD - to ensure it's the same mastering etc.

And there is not much in it actually. Yes the CD is a little clearer and more detailed but I think as general sound I don't have a strong preference. Pros and cons for both...

I now think it's more the that I liked the novelty - how the SA8005 digs more bass out of recordings than either the turntable from the LP or the streamer from the digital files...

Maybe just need to find a cartridge which has better bass 😆

This all ive ever said.

When push come to shove there's hardly a difference in the real world between any format. But get "attacked" for it quite frequently. Im told I must be deaf

Its a lovely hobby of discovery

 

[good_enough]

…except to us oldies, for whom it was the best source in the 1970s and 1980s until Compact Disc arrived. Those early CD players, despite their awesome lack of background noise, were not especially compatible with contemporary amplifiers, many of which had too sensitive inputs. These were designed for 0.5 volts from a tuner or cassette deck, sometimes less. Not 2 volts which was the default CD standard.

Accordingly many early players, with remastered analogue CDs more copious that digitally mastered ones, sounded screechy and unyielding to those accustomed to LPs and FM radio as their main sources.

The debate has raged ever since!

For me, I still love the LPs acquired from my late teens onwards, but by the late ‘80s I mostly bought CDs. The last decade I’ve subscribed to Qobuz, and bought no LPs (except a few secondhand bargains) and relatively few CDs as a result. 🙂

I enjoy each format in a different way, rather as I enjoy a pub band as much as a symphony orchestra - they’re both musicians!

Well and then there was the 'loudness war'. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war.

And the tendency around the 80's for that spikey, cluttered pop production that sounded like they were emptying the contents of a cutlery drawer over the mixing desk.

 

[Entrigo]

I'm not trying to say you are guilty of tribalism but, as Spike Milligan said, "there's a lot of it about."

Hahah yes I noticed!

As I was saying to nopiano above, I am definitely not one of those "I HATE DIGITAL SOUND IT'S INHUMAN" (or viceversa).


Anything that contributes to enjoying music is good in my books. I guess I just got thrown for a moment - and as someone (either here or on Steve Hoffman) said, it might also be because of the different presentation of my new CD player...

 

[Entrigo]

Have you ever heard about the RigB ( Rigid Body ) mod for your cartridge it makes a big difference to the sound.

Yup.

I have recently been in touch with Simon Clark of RigB and now just biding time while I decide whether to pull the trigger on the RigB body + other non essential (and possibly marginal) upgrades like the fluid damper - or use the money towards a AT-33PTG MC cart (he sells that and at a good price).

Can't quite do both right now as.... Hmmmm overspent a touch on both components and records lately 🙄 😆

 

[camcroft]

Yup.

I have recently been in touch with Simon Clark of RigB and now just biding time while I decide whether to pull the trigger on the RigB body + other non essential (and possibly marginal) upgrades like the fluid damper - or use the money towards a AT-33PTG MC cart (he sells that and at a good price).

Can't quite do both right now as.... Hmmmm overspent a touch on both components and records lately 🙄 😆

I have a RigB on two of my VM95's one I am using with a Paratrace stylus from Simon and the other with the E stylus on my other AT turntable I do have the ML stylus but I am keeping it as a spare.

 

[Revolutions]

I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with living in a paradox of analogue & digital. With my cassette deck, I'm now entering the Yngwie Malmsteen approach to hifi: "more is more"

View: https://youtu.be/QHZ48AE3TOI

 

[Jasonovich]

…except to us oldies, for whom it was the best source in the 1970s and 1980s until Compact Disc arrived. Those early CD players, despite their awesome lack of background noise, were not especially compatible with contemporary amplifiers, many of which had too sensitive inputs. These were designed for 0.5 volts from a tuner or cassette deck, sometimes less. Not 2 volts which was the default CD standard.

Accordingly many early players, with remastered analogue CDs more copious that digitally mastered ones, sounded screechy and unyielding to those accustomed to LPs and FM radio as their main sources.

The debate has raged ever since!

For me, I still love the LPs acquired from my late teens onwards, but by the late ‘80s I mostly bought CDs. The last decade I’ve subscribed to Qobuz, and bought no LPs (except a few secondhand bargains) and relatively few CDs as a result. 🙂

I enjoy each format in a different way, rather as I enjoy a pub band as much as a symphony orchestra - they’re both musicians!

1983 - my very first CD player from Marantz - Full Metal Jacket.
Beautiful champagne gold. Weighed a ton.
Certainly don't make them like that any more!


This was better than any contemporary CD transport of today. If Marantz still made it with modern chipsets and technology, I'll be tempted to buy it again. To be honest, if I factor in inflation, the ridiculous costs of HiFi today, I'll probably not be able to afford it !

 

[Entrigo]

I have a RigB on two of my VM95's one I am using with a Paratrace stylus from Simon and the other with the E stylus on my other AT turntable I do have the ML stylus but I am keeping it as a spare.

OK great. Was just reading about the RigB on Steve Hoffman - again, everyone raving about it, but not much detail on the sound improvement apart from mention of wider soundstage and more "slam" - which I guess resonates with my latest quest in having more bas weight. How are you finding it with the 95? What has it added to it?

I really like the 95 - also still have the body (with a semi-mangled/bent stylus)... Less detailed than the 540, but then the latter is a bit lean maybe in comparison.

 

[Entrigo]

I think a lot of people are uncomfortable with living in a paradox of analogue & digital. With my cassette deck, I'm now entering the Yngwie Malmsteen approach to hifi: "more is more"

View: https://youtu.be/QHZ48AE3TOI

Haha I know! The resurgence of tape is crazy!

I had boxes of tapes in the 90s - both originals and mixed/copied. And I actually brought loads of these over to London with me, then I threw them all out I think 10/15 years ago. Regretting it now 😆

 

[Entrigo]

1983 - my very first CD player from Marantz - Full Metal Jacket.
Beautiful champagne gold. Weighed a ton.
Certainly don't make them like that any more!

View attachment 8711

Gorgeous contraption.

 

[camcroft]

OK great. Was just reading about the RigB on Steve Hoffman - again, everyone raving about it, but not much detail on the sound improvement apart from mention of wider soundstage and more "slam" - which I guess resonates with my latest quest in having more bas weight. How are you finding it with the 95? What has it added to it?

I really like the 95 - also still have the body (with a semi-mangled/bent stylus)... Less detailed than the 540, but then the latter is a bit lean maybe in comparison.

I love the 95 the RigB really opened up the sound of the cartridge I also have Nagaoka cartridges but the older MP20 but with an MP11 stylus both in excellent condition and the RigB 95 walks all over it I keep doing comparisons between the two but the 95 always comes out on top.

 

[nopiano]

Ha. That's probably the source of much of the "I hate digital sound".. I normally don't ever feel like

"OH I HATE THAT. SOUND"

Or

"I LOVE THIS SO MUCH BETTER". There is a difference but it is not much to me. Maybe also as my last two CD players have been Marantz, so naturally a little warmer sounding. But never felt digital to be as cold or unengaging as many others

Yes, a lot of people decided pretty much at first listen! I waited for the second generation players, and still picked a Marantz, the top loading CD63b. And at that time I was working on Saturdays in a Hifi shop so heard quite a few different machines.

Both formats have evolved since, and many turntables are clearer and more precise, while cd players are smoother and richer than the early ones.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

vinyl or CD better
Records are better - Analogue recording , Analogue Mastering , Analogue Tape preview
Vinyl & CD both use the same digital File 16/44 or 24/96 as a source

Sir Cave Which pressing ? Most NC records shine on a decent TT
1st press or re-masters can affect fidelity by a huge margin

Meaningless. There's nothing special about analogue.