Can we hear sound above 20kHz!

[podknocker]

Pioneer's compact disc player from the 90s used Legato Link technology, which attempted to recreate harmonics lost by the CD's brick wall format - they certainly sounded different to other players.

There was a video on YouTube of a record played on a cheap turntable (sub £200) which graphically showed energy way above 20kHz.

I agree harmonics change the sound of recordinga and if they were flitered out, you would get a different sound, but most CD players don't try to fill in the upper frequency gaps that don't exist with most recordings. I bet 99% of CDs contain harmonics people can hear and don't contain harmonics people can't hear. There's very little on CD with 15 to 20 kHz frequencies, because the instruments and synths in the recording studio don't produce much between 15 and 20 kHz. It doesn't matter what the CD format can cope with, or your choice of filter, if the harmonics on not on there, they won't change the sound and you won't hear them.

 

[davidf]

I can't help but feel that those who say that instruments or recordings that produce frequencies above 10-15kHz are going to sound bad or harmful, have likely got some hearing issues brought on by such.

 

[davidf]

I agree harmonics change the sound of recordinga and if they were flitered out, you would get a different sound, but most CD players don't try to fill in the upper frequency gaps that don't exist with most recordings. I bet 99% of CDs contain harmonics people can hear and don't contain harmonics people can't hear. There's very little on CD with 15 to 20 kHz frequencies, because the instruments and synths in the recording studio don't produce much between 15 and 20 kHz.

But there will be on vinyl.

 

[podknocker]

But there will be on vinyl.

If a studio recording contains frequencies and harmonics up to 20 kHz, then the subsequent transfer to CD or vinyl from the master will contain these frequencies and no others. Vinyl has been shown to produce up to 50 kHz, but this is mistracking and noise, according to trustworthy videos online. Anything above 20 kHz on vinyl is an error. Vinyl can't add sounds never laid down on the source tape, harmonics or not and to suggest frequencies at 50 kHz or higher having any detectable influence on sounds within the range of human hearing is a joke.

 

[podknocker]

I can't help but feel that those who say that instruments or recordings that produce frequencies above 10-15kHz are going to sound bad or harmful, have likely got some hearing issues brought on by such.

A high frequency harmonic you can't hear, will add timbre to a lower frequency tone that you can hear. My view is that's different to listening to a very high frequency sine wave, which can only be produced electronically and will not have any associated harmonics adding to the timbre of the sound. These 16 to 20 kHz sine waves tend not to be common in nature, if they exist at all. I'm sure a CD of 16 to 20 kHz sine waves would give you a headache. A 16 to 20 kHz harmonic of a natural sound will probably make the audible stuff sound much better. All this splitting of hairs neglects to mention the ability of an amp, or speakers to accurately reproduce these harmonics and obviously, the acoustics of the room and the acuity of your hearing. Again, these uberpedantic technical arguments fail to take into account the real world practicalities and limitations of actually playing yourCD, or LP and realising that all the stuff people worry about isn't making much, if any real difference to the listening experience. If you were sat in sound proofed chamber and had the best possible playback system, then you might appreciate the recording, the mastering and its accuracy on your medium of choice, but I doubt this ever happens to anyone in their real world setup. There are so many external and uncontrollable variables affecting your music and I doubt these very high frequency harmonics get a look in.

 

[davidf]

If a studio recording contains frequencies and harmonics up to 20 kHz, then the subsequent transfer to CD or vinyl from the master will contain these frequencies and no others. Vinyl has been shown to produce up to 50 kHz, but this is mistracking and noise, according to trustworthy videos online. Anything above 20 kHz on vinyl is an error. Vinyl can't add sounds never laid down on the source tape, harmonics or not and to suggest frequencies at 50 kHz or higher having any detectable influence on sounds within the range of human hearing is a joke.

That's that sorted then.

 

[abacus]

 

[Jasonovich]

Humans cannot hear above roughly 20Khz, that is proven fact, however, that higher frequencies can be perceived (Not heard) by humans is quite possible.

Bill

Nice chart.
I suspect politicians flatulence, like those of Boris Johnson is below Sub 🙂

 

[Friesiansam]

Nice chart.
I suspect politicians flatulence, like those of Boris Johnson is below Sub 🙂

You've now put the image of fat MP's bum cheeks, flapping slowly, in my head...

 

[Roog]

What? You couldn't trust your ears because someone else said there was more hiss?! It doesn't matter what anyone else can hear, you can only go by what YOU hear. If you resign yourself to being inadequate because others can hear higher than you, then it's pointless listening to anything.

The point I was trying to make, perhaps badly, was that there was no point in me looking for a potentially superior and definitely more expensive system, because it was clear to me that I couldn't hear the difference.

I don't feel inadequate, my position is in part down to a fact of life.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

You're limiting yourself.

How?

 

[davidf]

How?

By having less faith in his own ears than measured stats.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

By having less faith in his own ears than measured stats.

No it's common sense. As I explained your ears are connected to your brain. You need to do blind listening tests or your listening comparisons will be flawed. That's a hard wired fact.

 

[davidf]

No it's common sense. As I explained your ears are connected to your brain. You need to do blind listening tests or your listening comparisons will be flawed. That's a hard wired fact.

If you say so.

 

[Dave_]

By having less faith in his own ears than measured stats.

Having faith in ones ears is foolish at best...


Ears are just transducers, it's the brain that does the processing.

I'm sure you must have done the blind spot test and explored various optical/auditory illusion during primary/secondary education science lessons that show how fallible it is.

 

[RTHerringbone]

Why do people take things so literally? 😂

 

[Jasonovich]

Off the back of the verbal tennis, here's food for thought and an interesting twist on the subject 😉

Is blind testing really the Holy Grail of Hifi robustness and honesty?

View: https://youtu.be/TKNWSyzGWVk?si=4VfPKBDyHuflwOmM

Proviso -Not saying it is or it isn't but perhaps worth having a separate discussion on a separate thread.

 

[twinkletoes]

To me high frequencies and super low bass is like fine dinning,

Have you ever had a dining experience that left you spellbound? There’s something about those special moments that makes them unforgettable. Maybe it’s the skill of the chef, the unique type of wood they use to grill your steak, or even the special spoon they employ. But it’s those little details that set these meals apart from what you can do at home.

Now, I’m not saying I can hear the extended frequencies, but I can sense something different. you can feel it, even though we can’t hear it. It’s that feeling of walking across your grave, but in a pleasant way.

Might just be a load of rubbish. But with some recordings, I can’t help but feel a sense of connection and enjoyment that I can’t find anywhere else.

 

[Jasonovich]

To me high frequencies and super low bass is like fine dinning,

Have you ever had a dining experience that left you spellbound? There’s something about those special moments that makes them unforgettable. Maybe it’s the skill of the chef, the unique type of wood they use to grill your steak, or even the special spoon they employ. But it’s those little details that set these meals apart from what you can do at home.

Now, I’m not saying I can hear the extended frequencies, but I can sense something different. you can feel it, even though we can’t hear it. It’s that feeling of walking across your grave, but in a pleasant way.

Might just be a load of rubbish. But with some recordings, I can’t help but feel a sense of connection and enjoyment that I can’t find anywhere else.

We don't give enough credence to our natural senses, the ability to pick out the subtle nuances, the sound you can't hear but it's there like a finger print.

 

[good_enough]

Recommended reading

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A much-touted benefit of DVD-Audio and Super Audio CD is that these new media can store digital audio data extending one or more octaves higher in frequency response than the capabilities of the CD. In the August issue's "Industry Update" (pp.27-29), Paul Messenger reported on an add-on...

www.stereophile.com

 

[manicm]

Having faith in ones ears is foolish at best...


Ears are just transducers, it's the brain that does the processing.

I'm sure you must have done the blind spot test and explored various optical/auditory illusion during primary/secondary education science lessons that show how fallible it is.

No it's not foolish. Your ears and nose rely on the brain too, lest you forget.

What my ears hear is the truth. That can be due to distortion, but it's still the truth. What your eyes see is a distortion too.

I've owned equipment that sounded good and bad to me, and that's all I need to know really.

Measurements are good, but unless you hear something you're not going to know.

 

[Jasonovich]

No it's not foolish. Your ears and nose rely on the brain too, lest you forget.

What my ears hear is the truth. That can be due to distortion, but it's still the truth. What your eyes see is a distortion too.

I've owned equipment that sounded good and bad to me, and that's all I need to know really.

Measurements are good, but unless you hear something you're not going to know.

Your throat is also connected to brain via the the glossopharyngeal nerve*, this might explain why some people talk weird (me included!) but nevertheless all these opinions make up the wider gamut of speech and without these anomalies of opinion we cannot come to a consensus.

Same with audio the stuff which is beyond our hearing is part of the fabric of music, it gives it space and realism. Truncate it all off and there's a void. Have you ever wondered why MP3's sound tinny and thin?

*actually it has all to do with taste and sensory information to your mouth and throat. nothing to do with speech, but using this example purely for the purpose of making a point hence the emoji.

 

[AJM1981]

Be careful with high frequency hearing tests, especially with headphones. The tendency is to up the volume to hear, but that's the best way to make yourself deaf or cause serious hearing loss.

Also, there is nothing musically significant or even anything “generally enjoyable” in those particular frequencies. No loss in the real sense of anything.

 

[bemaniac]

Is having a tweeter being able to produce super high frequencies above 20khz better for the frequencies under 20khz in terms of smoothness or resonance?

 

[Jasonovich]

Is having a tweeter being able to produce super high frequencies above 20khz better for the frequencies under 20khz in terms of smoothness or resonance?

Really good question but how do you answer to the unanswerable?
Not unless some flat earther on YouTube comes up with measurements and we all go oooooh ah, it's all in your head.
I think it is important we look at it objectively though I suspect, ultimately it will come down to subjectivity.
I think the integrity of tweeter design will be the pivotal factor that determines the quality of the sound.
AMT designs in my opinion, give more realism, a sweeter treble in the high frequencies.