Buying a new Hi-fi setup - question about speaker cable length

[admin_exported]

Hi Forum,

I´m in the market for a new mid-range Hi-Fi setup, and thought it only natural to audition the Kandy K2 amp / Cyrus CD 6SE / B/W 685 speaker setup - the current best buy in this price-range.

We´ve just built a new house, and the living room is prepared for in-wall speaker cabling. Due to the limited positioning options in our living room, particularly due to some big floor-to-ceiling windows, and triple doors, the in-wall solution is what I want to use.

Here comes the - maybe - problem: the runs of speaker cable will be a total of 9,8 and 15,8 meters for the L / R speaker respectively.

1: Does this speaker cable length pose a problem, with my proposed setup?

2: If not, will it be best to buy two runs of 15,8 meter cable, and just ´curl´ up the excessive amount on the 9,8 meter run?

3: Which speaker cable should I be aiming for, bearing in mind that the in-wall ducts are approx. 1cm inside diameter.

Looking forward to the solutions/comments from this forum.

Regards,

Søren Svendsen

Denmark

 

[SteveR750]

The cable lengths must be the same for bnoth L and R otherwise you will create an imbalanace between the 2 channels. As far as the actual length goes, then if you have to use 15+ metres then well thats what you have to do! The basic premise is keep as short as possible but there are of course always constraints that mean you simply have to use a longer cable.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi SteveR750,

Thanks for your feedback. What about speaker cables - any you would recommend - particularly keeping in mind the long cable run?

Thinking about something like the Chord Charnival Silverscreen, or QED Silver Anniversary XT.

Regards,

S›ren

 

[chebby]

Your choice is going to be severely limited by having to fit it all in a conduit with a maximum of 1cm width inside.

I think you can forget Chord Carnival SilverScreen. It is exactly 10mm wide - so a very tight fit - and certainly not fexible enough to go around a sharp 90 degree corner. It only has to be a fraction of a millimetre too wide somewhere along the length to completely jam in the conduit somewhere.

 

[Dave_]

Svendsen:

What about speaker cables - any you would recommend - particularly keeping in mind the long cable run?

Thinking about something like the Chord Charnival Silverscreen, or QED Silver Anniversary XT. Chord Carnival SS has a 1cm diameter so wont fit in your 1cm conduit.

For long cable run's you could consider Chord Leyline,that what it's designed for and has a 6mm overall diameter. Info Here

 

[Gerrardasnails]

SteveR750:The cable lengths must be the same for bnoth L and R otherwise you will create an imbalanace between the 2 channels. As far as the actual length goes, then if you have to use 15+ metres then well thats what you have to do! The basic premise is keep as short as possible but there are of course always constraints that mean you simply have to use a longer cable.

This is not accurate. Any imbalance will not be audible to the human ear. This has been debated on here before. You are more likely to get inteference from having 6m of cable coiled up for no reason and it would cost a lot.

From Chord Co. website (note, "if possible"), "2. Think about the position of your system. Shorter runs of cable will not only sound better but will cost less. If possible, keep the left and right runs of cable the same length.

3. Avoid running speaker cable next to mains cable. If you need to cross a mains cable, do so at an angle of ninety degrees. If one speaker is closer to the amplifier than the other, do not be tempted to tidy the excess length by coiling the cable. This will degrade the performance." .

Another quote from the web which makes sense.

"The cable connects the amplifier's output to the loudspeaker. The resistance of the connection is ideally zero, but in practice will be some small fraction of an ohm. The amplifier's output impedance will also normally be some small fraction of an ohm. The loudspeaker presents a load of a few ohms, so typically will be several times the combined output impedance of the amp and resistance of the cable. Consequently, having one cable a few metres longer (or shorter) than the other will make a tiny difference in level, fractions of a dB.

The other consideration is that one loudspeaker will receive its signal earlier than the other. Electrical signals travel at close to the speed of light, or 300,000km/sec. or 3 x 10^8 metres/sec. Consequently, for a difference in length of 1 metre, the time difference will be 3.3nSec. This also corresponds to an acoustic path difference of 3.6microns, or half a gnat's whisker, and as your loudspeakers are unlikely to be positioned to micron accuracy, and even if they were, you couldn't sit to micron accuracy, the arrival time difference is absolutely negligeable.

You would have to have a cable length difference of hundreds of metres to make a noticeable difference.

When I had access to 100 metre rolls of loudspeaker cable, I once put 100 metres of QED 79 strand in one channel, and 2 metres in the other, and absolutely NO difference in image position or sound".

 

[chebby]

Sounds smashing all that Gerrard. Any ideas for flexible and good quality cable that can easily be threaded through 15 metres of 1cm diameter pipe buried in a wall?

Svendsen:Which speaker cable should I be aiming for,
bearing in mind that the in-wall ducts are approx. 1cm inside
diameter.

 

[Andrew Everard]

This looks like a good starting-point

 

[chebby]

Could be fun with 20m of strong fishing line, an 8mm threaded bead, a knowledge of strong knots, a leatherworker's needle, a vacuum cleaner with hose and a small plastic funnel that you can poke tightly into 1cm pipe.

Thread fishing line through bead and tie securely. Pop it in one end of pipe/conduit with 20m of fishing line loosely draped on floor, or preferably with someone to feed it through.

Other end: Poke funnel into pipe until it is tight. Push vacuum cleaner nozzle squarely onto hole in funnel. Switch on. Suction should pull bead - and fishing line- through pipe if pipe has no leaks and is smooth.

Back to 1st end of pipe. Thread leatherworker's needle with fishing line and pierce speaker cable right through with it. Remove needle and tie the line to securely attach to speaker cable. (Make sure cable is not yet cut back or splayed.) place end of cable into hole and have someone there to ease the cable in.

Back to other end and keep pulling on fishing line until speaker cable emerges, hopefully without snagging & without refusing to easily flex around a corner.

I am assuming this pipe or duct is already buried in the wall

 

[Andrew Everard]

chebby:Could be fun with 20m of strong fishing line, an 8mm threaded bead, a knowledge of strong knots, a leatherworker's needle, a vacuum cleaner with hose and a small plastic funnel that you can poke tightly into 1cm pipe.

Sounds like my kinda party...

Failing that, this one from the same brand is probably stiff enough to push through unaided, provided your ducting isn't too kinky (missus) - though it is somewhat more expensive...

 

[John Duncan]

I was going to suggest Chord (QED have a cutom install line as well I think) but then got waylaid by their "what's in our listening room" page - Primare, Primare, Primare...

Then they spoil it all by mentioning a CD73

 

[RodhasGibson]

JohnDuncan:I was going to suggest Chord (QED have a cutom install line as well I think) but then got waylaid by their "what's in our listening room" page - Primare, Primare, Primare... Then they spoil it all by mentioning a CD73

YOU would of thought they could have stretched to a CD 192 at least

 

[The_Lhc]

RodhasGibson:JohnDuncan:I was going to suggest Chord (QED have a cutom install line as well I think) but then got waylaid by their "what's in our listening room" page - Primare, Primare, Primare... Then they spoil it all by mentioning a CD73

YOU would of thought they could have stretched to a CD 192 at least

No. You would HAVE thought they could though...

 

[Gerrardasnails]

chebby:
Sounds smashing all that Gerrard. Any ideas for fexible and good quality cable that can easily be threaded through 15 metres of 1cm diameter pipe buried in a wall?

Svendsen:Which speaker cable should I be aiming for,
bearing in mind that the in-wall ducts are approx. 1cm inside
diameter.

I was questioning SteveR's input which was referenced in one of the questions the OP asked. Better to know the lengths needed before buying a specific cable.

 

[respe]

The difference in speaker cable length will not effect the sound reproduction of the system, (if the difference was a mile or two it may). The lengths of cable involved suggest that you system is housed well away from the speakers. That to my mind is a more preferable location than the norm, of having a rack full of gear in between the biggest vibration source in your room. I have for years had my speakers as far away as possible from the system. The downside is that for longish speaker runs I would normally suggest 4mm2 speaker cable, and you have pretty much ruled that out. Have a look at the Van Damme speaker cable range, and see if they have anything that will fit through the ducting.

 

[chebby]

respe:...I would normally suggest 4mm2 speaker cable, and you have pretty much ruled that out. Have a look at the Van Damme speaker cable range, and see if they have anything that will fit through the ducting.

Looked at the 2.5mm and 4mm Van Damme and ruled these out based on dimensions.

However one or two of these look fine.

 

[respe]

If you feel the 2.5 square will thread, it will be more than fine. I only suggest the 4mm2 for 'long' runs as the resistance is much lower, (that is over 1km though, 15-16 metres are not going to be a problem. I use the 4mm in my system (16m runs) and prefer the overall sound to any of the named brands I have tried.

 

[Dan Turner]

Personally I think it makes sense to go for the absolute best cable you can afford - given that you're burying it in the wall you want the confidence to know it's not going to be a limiting factor no matter what upgrades you might make to your system over the lifetime of your lounge's new decor.

I can highly recommend Atlas Hyper 2.0 (better than the 6mm Van Damme I was using before) and it's less than 1cm in diameter.

 

[SteveR750]

Gerrardasnails:SteveR750:The cable lengths must be the same for bnoth L and R otherwise you will create an imbalanace between the 2 channels. As far as the actual length goes, then if you have to use 15+ metres then well thats what you have to do! The basic premise is keep as short as possible but there are of course always constraints that mean you simply have to use a longer cable.

This is not accurate. Any imbalance will not be audible to the human ear. This has been debated on here before. You are more likely to get inteference from having 6m of cable coiled up for no reason and it would cost a lot. ".

sorry but I totally disagree, and if nothing else it shows that if all you can do is measure with your ears then that is exactly what you should do!! I had about 1m difference in my speaker cables for about 3 years wthout realising it, and always had a slight imbalance. Once I cut to the same length (within the tolerances aforded with the naked eyes and a pair of pliers) the imbalance disappeared. No I didnt measure it, and i'll only accept your theory if you can mathematically prove that is the case!

I'm sure that the human ear is easily capable of detecting variations of less than 0.5dB (3db is double the subjective volume). Again, the Goldeb ears test is enough to tell you that a subjective assessment of sound simply isnt sufficiently reliable a test to benchmark between individuals.

 

[Anonymous]

SteveR750:
Gerrardasnails:SteveR750:The cable lengths must be the same for bnoth L and R otherwise you will create an imbalanace between the 2 channels. As far as the actual length goes, then if you have to use 15+ metres then well thats what you have to do! The basic premise is keep as short as possible but there are of course always constraints that mean you simply have to use a longer cable.
This is not accurate. Any imbalance will not be audible to the human ear. This has been debated on here before. You are more likely to get inteference from having 6m of cable coiled up for no reason and it would cost a lot. ".

sorry but I totally disagree, and if nothing else it shows that if all you can do is measure with your ears then that is exactly what you should do!! I had about 1m difference in my speaker cables for about 3 years wthout realising it, and always had a slight imbalance. Once I cut to the same length (within the tolerances aforded with the naked eyes and a pair of pliers) the imbalance disappeared. No I didnt measure it, and i'll only accept your theory if you can mathematically prove that is the case!

I'm sure that the human ear is easily capable of detecting variations of less than 0.5dB (3db is double the subjective volume). Again, the Goldeb ears test is enough to tell you that a subjective assessment of sound simply isnt sufficiently reliable a test to benchmark between individuals.

There will be no difference whatsoever if the OP uses the lengths he mentions.

I currently use one 2,5m run, and one 5,

Not a jot of difference, although I have to admit that at one time I believed both cables had to be the same length, I think its a myth perpertrated by cable makers, just like bi wiring, to make us buy more cable.

 

[SteveR750]

icehockeyboy:SteveR750:
Gerrardasnails:SteveR750:The cable lengths must be the same for bnoth L and R otherwise you will create an imbalanace between the 2 channels. As far as the actual length goes, then if you have to use 15+ metres then well thats what you have to do! The basic premise is keep as short as possible but there are of course always constraints that mean you simply have to use a longer cable.
This is not accurate. Any imbalance will not be audible to the human ear. This has been debated on here before. You are more likely to get inteference from having 6m of cable coiled up for no reason and it would cost a lot. ".

sorry but I totally disagree, and if nothing else it shows that if all you can do is measure with your ears then that is exactly what you should do!! I had about 1m difference in my speaker cables for about 3 years wthout realising it, and always had a slight imbalance. Once I cut to the same length (within the tolerances aforded with the naked eyes and a pair of pliers) the imbalance disappeared. No I didnt measure it, and i'll only accept your theory if you can mathematically prove that is the case!

I'm sure that the human ear is easily capable of detecting variations of less than 0.5dB (3db is double the subjective volume). Again, the Goldeb ears test is enough to tell you that a subjective assessment of sound simply isnt sufficiently reliable a test to benchmark between individuals.

There will be no difference whatsoever if the OP uses the lengths he mentions.

I currently use one 2,5m run, and one 5,

Not a jot of difference, although I have to admit that at one time I believed both cables had to be the same length, I think its a myth perpertrated by cable makers, just like bi wiring, to make us buy more cable.

Nope, still not convinced! I wonder if all of the signal paths in your source / amp / speakers are diferent lengths just because its ok? And do you use different length IC's?

I'm quite intrigued why some people can't hear any difference yet others will swear blind that turning a light on at 6pm every Thursday does!

 

[respe]

Some people appear to be capable of hearing a unicorn fart a couple of miles away, others miss the elephant farting in the room. I think much of it depends if you listen with your ears or eyes. If eyes and expectation are taken out of the equation it is surprising how different test results turn out. I am sorry to say, that in my opinion there is so much ******** and myth wrapped around Hi-Fi that people are very easily able to convince themselves of whatever they want. I had a little gathering of friends a while back, listening to a couple of pairs of speakers, 3 CD players, and various forms of computer stored audio files. The speakers changes no one missed, CD player changes where harder to spot, but still heard. Lossless and compressed audio files where also spotted, with different people missing the changes at different bit rates. The interesting bit was the changes people noted in cable,s both I/C's and speaker, especially where no change took place. One of the guy's present runs valve amps, and uses a bias meter or somesuch when setting his amp up. His comments went along the lines that we audiophools all carry them around in our heads when listening to kit.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

SteveR750:icehockeyboy:SteveR750:
Gerrardasnails:SteveR750:The cable lengths must be the same for bnoth L and R otherwise you will create an imbalanace between the 2 channels. As far as the actual length goes, then if you have to use 15+ metres then well thats what you have to do! The basic premise is keep as short as possible but there are of course always constraints that mean you simply have to use a longer cable.
This is not accurate. Any imbalance will not be audible to the human ear. This has been debated on here before. You are more likely to get inteference from having 6m of cable coiled up for no reason and it would cost a lot. ".

sorry but I totally disagree, and if nothing else it shows that if all you can do is measure with your ears then that is exactly what you should do!! I had about 1m difference in my speaker cables for about 3 years wthout realising it, and always had a slight imbalance. Once I cut to the same length (within the tolerances aforded with the naked eyes and a pair of pliers) the imbalance disappeared. No I didnt measure it, and i'll only accept your theory if you can mathematically prove that is the case!

I'm sure that the human ear is easily capable of detecting variations of less than 0.5dB (3db is double the subjective volume). Again, the Goldeb ears test is enough to tell you that a subjective assessment of sound simply isnt sufficiently reliable a test to benchmark between individuals.

There will be no difference whatsoever if the OP uses the lengths he mentions.

I currently use one 2,5m run, and one 5,

Not a jot of difference, although I have to admit that at one time I believed both cables had to be the same length, I think its a myth perpertrated by cable makers, just like bi wiring, to make us buy more cable.

Nope, still not convinced! I wonder if all of the signal paths in your source / amp / speakers are diferent lengths just because its ok? And do you use different length IC's?

I'm quite intrigued why some people can't hear any difference yet others will swear blind that turning a light on at 6pm every Thursday does!

Here's some maths/science/logic.

http://www.rfowkes.com/WireLengthTimeDelay.html

 

[SteveR750]

But that only addresses the issue of length and the velocity of electrical charge (light speed) which of course means that for practical purposes it has no effect.

What about impedance? What about the efect on damping factor? If speaker cables can make so much difference per se (and what about tiny lengths of jumper cables) then why shouldn't length have an effect? In simple terms, if there is a signal degradation taking place, then it could be asssumed that this degradation is linear along the length of the conductor. Therefore, the total loss per cable is a factor its total length - and remember people are claiming that there is a degradation of digital information in a cable, let alone lots of current and fairly wide bandwidth of analogue AC!

Anyway as I and others have said each of us has different responses to different aural stimuli, and I'm simply intrigued how some characteristics are regarded as important (cable burning in, even directional cables) that some claim to have a sonic benefit, whilst this doesn't!

I have yet to find anywhere on the net some properly verified research on the effects of microstructure of metal alloys on electrical varying frequency AC conductivity in a linear conductor. I'm sure someone somehwere has done some work on it, though I would be healthily sceptical of claims made by any cable manufacturer.