Bought a new Dac but not what i expected.

[CnoEvil]

Well put Chebby , pretty much all of your post applies to me :cheers:

Pooters eh , I just fudge it or call in the geek ( usually because I have lashed something up ).

Bring back Slide Rules and Log Tables, I say.

My knowledge came from a book called "Fred learns about Computers"......Need I say more. :doh:

 

[floyd droid]

Bring back Slide Rules and Log Tables, I say.

Plus compulsory Latin

 

[chebby]

Bring back Slide Rules and Log Tables, I say.

Aah... log tables...

 

[eggontoast]

+1 No wonder he can't hear any difference; he's still hearing his soundcard!

I can't believe that people still don't know how to use an external DAC with their PC or laptop.

Uh, what utter BS

 

[CnoEvil]

Bring back Slide Rules and Log Tables, I say.

Aah... log tables...

Tree + Two + Two = :?

Where is my Abacus?

 

[CnoEvil]

Bring back Slide Rules and Log Tables, I say.

Plus compulsory Latin

I might just replace my signature -

Damnant quod non intelligunt.

 

[byakuya83]

This thread is hilarious - optical or USB, are they simply transferring the same digital data or not? And all this stuff about electrical noise and jitter...now I am confused. Would an external DAC make what happens within the source more or less irrelevant in that respect?

 

[ISAC69]

I bought the MF V DACII and sold it after a year not a very good DAC it tends to be over bass , details are poor and the soundstage was narrow . the coax interconnect is the best , the USB is OK and optical is the worst one .

If you realy want to notice an improvement on the sound buy a good DAC (+ 400.00 pounds ) and good intterconnects (+100.00 pounds each ) . it seems that your amp is a problem too ...

There are no shortcuts ! if you want a real improvement you have to be prepare to spend money carefully on every item in the system chain.

 

[chebby]

I though the different inputs were for connecting stuff rather than arguing about. (USB typically for laptop, opticals for TV or PS3 or whatever ... etc.)

When I had a seperate DAC that's what I did. I plugged the USB from the computer into the USB connection and the optical cable from our old DVD/Freeview/HDD recorder into the optical connection.

It wouldn't have mattered a jot whether someone wanted to argue that one was better than the other. That's where they had to go.

 

[Overdose]

It seems that some are still equating more expensive to better. A 'transparent' DAC can be head for less than £100, at that point there is no more audible improvement to be made, regardless of cost.

Back to the OP and his DAC. It has been suggested to connect via USB from the PC and not optical from the soundcard. The reason would be to see if there is a discrepancy between the implementation of the USB or optical connections in the new DAC, before getting to the DAC chip itself. If there is, use the one that sounds best, but in all honesty, you are unlikely to notice what are often touted as large differences between DACs.

If you want some sort of reference, try a Benchmark DAC1 at £1K or an Epiphany E-DAC at <£100, take your pic, either are transparent.

 

[Al ears]

Bring back Slide Rules and Log Tables, I say.

Plus compulsory Latin

I might just replace my signature -

Damnant quod non intelligunt.

Illigitimi non carborundum I say and the wee legs on the log table look a bit skewed (statisical term).

Oh, and I am a firm believer that not all DACs sound the same.

Ta 'dah.

 

[steve_1979]

This thread is hilarious - optical or USB, are they simply transferring the same digital data or not?

This is correct. It will be exactly the same data being transferred with either method.

There's no need to worry about jitter either because there is never anywhere near enough of it to be audiable. I've done tests on this before and you'd be suprised by how much jitter you can get away with before it becomes audiable. It's a non-issue and doesn't need to be worried about.

...And all this stuff about electrical noise and jitter...now I am confused. Would an external DAC make what happens within the source more or less irrelevant in that respect?

There's a lot of electromagnetic noise inside a computer case so it is possible that the analogue section of the sound cards DAC could pick this up and make it audiable. IME this isn't an issue very often though. When it does happen it's usually obvious because it tends to add noise whenever the processor is working hard or when the harddrive is operating.

It's possible to buy special soundcards that have a built in electromagnetic shield that stops this from happening but as I said it simply isn't nessessary in most cases (pun intended ).

 

[andyjm]

There's no need to worry about jitter either because there is never anywhere near enough of it to be audiable. I've done tests on this before and you'd be suprised by how much jitter you can get away with before it becomes audiable. It's a non-issue and doesn't need to be worried about.

I would be interested to hear about your tests on jitter.

What was the threshold of detection, and was the jitter random, or correlated to the programme material in some way?

 

[steve_1979]

There's no need to worry about jitter either because there is never anywhere near enough of it to be audiable. I've done tests on this before and you'd be suprised by how much jitter you can get away with before it becomes audiable. It's a non-issue and doesn't need to be worried about.

I would be interested to hear about your tests on jitter.

What was the threshold of detection, and was the jitter random, or correlated to the programme material in some way?

You can try the jitter tests for yourself if you like.

Here are some prerecorded music samples with varying amounts of jitter added to them.

Jitter test part 1

http://hddaudio.net/HDD_Audio/Articles/Entries/2009/12/19_Can_you_hear_jitter.html

Jitter test part 2

http://hddaudio.net/HDD_Audio/Articles/Entries/2009/12/19_Can_you_hear_jitter_Part_2.html

You can quickly do a rough comparison of the music files by just listening to them in whatever digital music player you normally use to listen to music.

Alternatively if you want to compare them using a 100% unbiased proper scientific ABX comparison method then I advise that you try the Foobar music player with the ABX pluggin installed.

 

[basshound]

After reading this thread and others similar regarding amps,cables etc. maybe I ( we ) should change strategy on how to buy components. If amps and dacs all sound broadly the same and cables make no or little difference (I`m in the non believer camp regarding cables) then we should probably be spending the majority of any budget on speakers and possibly room correction.

I recently added an Antimode (see here) http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml to my set up and it has been the biggest improvement since I changed from an integrated amp to the pre-power combo. Gone OT somewhat but interested to hear others thoughts.

 

[matt49]

After reading this thread and others similar regarding amps,cables etc. maybe I ( we ) should change strategy on how to buy components. If amps and dacs all sound broadly the same and cables make no or little difference (I`m in the non believer camp regarding cables) then we should probably be spending the majority of any budget on speakers and possibly room correction.

I recently added an Antimode (see here) http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml to my set up and it has been the biggest improvement since I changed from an integrated amp to the pre-power combo. Gone OT somewhat but interested to hear others thoughts.

This was one of my thoughts when I ordered a Devialet 170 -- integrated DSP with capacity for room correction, albeit not yet implemented.

 

[andyjm]

There's no need to worry about jitter either because there is never anywhere near enough of it to be audiable. I've done tests on this before and you'd be suprised by how much jitter you can get away with before it becomes audiable. It's a non-issue and doesn't need to be worried about.

I would be interested to hear about your tests on jitter.

What was the threshold of detection, and was the jitter random, or correlated to the programme material in some way?

You can try the jitter tests for yourself if you like.

Here are some prerecorded music samples with varying amounts of jitter added to them.

Jitter test part 1

http://hddaudio.net/HDD_Audio/Articles/Entries/2009/12/19_Can_you_hear_jitter.html

Jitter test part 2

http://hddaudio.net/HDD_Audio/Articles/Entries/2009/12/19_Can_you_hear_jitter_Part_2.html

You can quickly do a rough comparison of the music files by just listening to them in whatever digital music player you normally use to listen to music.

Alternatively if you want to compare them using a 100% unbiased proper scientific ABX comparison method then I advise that you try the Foobar music player with the ABX pluggin installed.

The files have had random jitter introduced. This has been shown to be far less objectionable than jitter correlated in some way to the programme material itself.

You are of course playing these files through a device with jitter of its own. Depending on the distribution of the playback jitter in comparison to the jitter introduced into the files, this may make comparisons less (or more) sensitive.

It would be a brave man who descirbed jitter as a 'non issues that doesn't need to be worried about' on the basis of the files you downloaded.

 

[TrevC]

I heard a massive difference when I changed from a computer soundcard to the cheapest Behringer UCA 202 DAC. Now a CD played on the computer (via a cheap 20 foot cable from ebay) sounds exactly the same as my not exactly cheap Arcam CD player. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Depends on your POV.

 

[DocG]

After reading this thread and others similar regarding amps,cables etc. maybe I ( we ) should change strategy on how to buy components. If amps and dacs all sound broadly the same and cables make no or little difference (I`m in the non believer camp regarding cables) then we should probably be spending the majority of any budget on speakers and possibly room correction.

I recently added an Antimode (see here) http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/20-dual-core.shtml to my set up and it has been the biggest improvement since I changed from an integrated amp to the pre-power combo. Gone OT somewhat but interested to hear others thoughts.

I see things in a similar way. A good DSP engine can make a huge difference in the final result, through room correction and (maybe even more important) timing and phase alignment of the drivers. Incorporating the tech in the (pre)amp, or better still, in between the transport and the DAC, seems the most rational approach. As with any new technology, there's still much room for improvement, and it's expensive at the moment.

As for amplifiers, they may make less of a difference as long as they can control the speakers in their comfort zone. So IMO you need to have an idea of the kind of speakers you're gonna get, before choosing an amp, or get the speakers first, of course.

 

[MakkaPakka]

After reading this thread and others similar regarding amps,cables etc. maybe I ( we ) should change strategy on how to buy components. If amps and dacs all sound broadly the same and cables make no or little difference (I`m in the non believer camp regarding cables) then we should probably be spending the majority of any budget on speakers and possibly room correction.

That's exactly what I did.

If you need an AB/X test to tell apart a £200 amplifier from a £2000 one then the difference is not likely to be worth bothering with. Speakers and the room provide real, clear, measurable results.

I can show quite clearly with a frequency response graph that moving my speakers two inches changes the sound. I doubt I could provide you with any proof that swapping my CD player has made a difference.