Blurays measured to be different

[aliEnRIK]

Cant post the source as usual

But ive just now been looking at a list of measurements from some OPPO players and a sony S570

The different types of HDMI 'colour spaces' were measured

The OPPOs were all pretty much perfect (except HDMI 2 output on the Oppo 93 was very slighly out in one case)

The S570 was all over the place, no colour space was correct and 'proved' that not all bluray players are the same

They then put a test disc on to see these differences on a huge calibrated projector - which to the people involved were 'possible to see'.

 

[Clare Newsome]

A 'huge calibrated projector' being, of course, exactly what we use to test Blu-ray players here at WHF, where we've often noted picture differences between players....

 

[aliEnRIK]

Indeed Clare

I would also like to add that all the measurements were simple signals. 25% luminance for example. What actual 'real world' measurements would be on constantly changing pictures with thousands of pixels is anyones guess (And currently impossible to measure)

I would personally guess that those figures would become much more random in the Sonys case. And the Oppo wouldnt be quite so 'perfect'

Also bear in mind that the sony doesnt use any actual filtering, these are errors within the colour decoding chip/s themselves. There are players that DO use filtering, and their measurements will be way out (And nothing like what your supposed to be seeing)

 

[Clare Newsome]

You're right to mention moving pictures. I am sick of seeing comparisons of ANY AV product solely based on side-by-side viewing of static images - how products handle motion is absolutely crucial!

 

[chebby]

But ive just now been looking at a list of measurements from some OPPO players and a sony S570

The different types of HDMI 'colour spaces' were measured

The OPPOs were all pretty much perfect (except HDMI 2 output on the Oppo 93 was very slighly out in one case)

The S570 was all over the place, no colour space was correct and 'proved' that not all bluray players are the same

They then put a test disc on to see these differences on a huge calibrated projector - which to the people involved were 'possible to see'.

The same site also gave the S570 a glowing review (including a 'bench test') and a "Best of 2010" award last year.

WHF also gave the S570 a great 5 star review and an award in 2010.

Just shows (yet again) that watching measurements doesn't tell us a great deal.

 

[Clare Newsome]

Indeed. But also worth pointing out that our reviews are value-based - there were players that outperformed the Sony S570 last year, but not in the same price point; it provided the best performance/features for the money in its class.

What you expect a £150 player to achieve may be very different to the performance you'd demand from a £1000 player (for sound and vision, plus features).

 

[Anonymous]

so, one test from an "unknown source" suggests differences between players, that are only "allegedly" noticeable on a huge screen that 99% of people would never use anyway, and this thread of rejoicement is born, the believers are now interested in all anonymous measured tests then??

yet any other time that someone mentions tests (of which there are many) that measure no difference between bdp's, hdmi cables, mains cables, interconnects, speaker cables etc, the non believers are told not to believe/regurgitate everything they read on the "internet" and that they should trust their eyes and ears.

i think i get it now....

 

[Andrew Everard]

so, one test from an "unknown source" suggests differences between players, that are only "allegedly" noticeable on a huge screen that 99% of people would never use anyway, and this thread of rejoicement is born, the believers are now interested in all anonymous measured tests then??

No, it's a known source, and nothing 'allegedly' about it: it's just that as the OP rightly indicates, House Rules preclude publicity of that source. And the results were obtained by measurement, and then show to be visible on that large screen with the 'calibrated projector. You're trying to make a point based on a misreading again, max.

yet any other time that someone mentions tests (of which there are many) that measure no difference between bdp's, hdmi cables, mains cables, interconnects, speaker cables etc, the non believers are told not to believe/regurgitate everything they read on the "internet" and that they should trust their eyes and ears.

i think i get it now....

See? Knew we'd get there in the end.

 

[bigboss]

This topic, like HDMI cables, will never die. Some see a difference, & some don't. I didn't notice any difference, including motion handling on my 50-inch Kuro, probably because I compared on a 50-inch screen & not on a huge projector. I may compare again if I upgrade to a projector in the future. At present, I'm happy with my BDP and feel no need to change it anytime soon (except if I feel a pressing need to buy a universal player which can play my now defunct VCD collection).

 

[aliEnRIK]

the believers are now interested in all anonymous measured tests then??

Ive always been interested in measurements. What you fail to understand is whats actually being measured and then take those measurements and place them into its correct context to paint a bigger picture.

I am absolutely 100% sure that over the next 10 years more and more measurements will prove what ive been saying all along.

 

[John Duncan]

so, one test from an "unknown source" suggests differences between players, that are only "allegedly" noticeable on a huge screen that 99% of people would never use anyway, and this thread of rejoicement is born, the believers are now interested in all anonymous measured tests then??

yet any other time that someone mentions tests (of which there are many) that measure no difference between bdp's, hdmi cables, mains cables, interconnects, speaker cables etc, the non believers are told not to believe/regurgitate everything they read on the "internet" and that they should trust their eyes and ears.

i think i get it now....

You can't prove non-existence of something, only existence. All the test that say there is no difference only proves that they didn't find it. Only tests that prove a difference have actually proved something...

 

[aliEnRIK]

You can't prove non-existence of something, only existence. All the test that say there is no difference only proves that they didn't find it. Only tests that prove a difference have actually proved something...

Absolutely correct that John

 

[aliEnRIK]

This topic, like HDMI cables, will never die. Some see a difference, & some don't. I didn't notice any difference, including motion handling on my 50-inch Kuro, probably because I compared on a 50-inch screen & not on a huge projector. I may compare again if I upgrade to a projector in the future. At present, I'm happy with my BDP and feel no need to change it anytime soon (except if I feel a pressing need to buy a universal player which can play my now defunct VCD collection).

As a general rule, anything OVER 3dE (calibration measurements, what I use when calibrating grey scales for example) can be percieved by most people with good eyesight

The S570 had errors as high as 7.5dE, and as noted above, these were static measurements. Real world picture movement would more than likely be far worse as the decoding chip is doing far more work.

It should also be noted that there would probably have been even worse static measurements if the whole scale had been measured from 0 - 255

 

[bigboss]

This topic, like HDMI cables, will never die. Some see a difference, & some don't. I didn't notice any difference, including motion handling on my 50-inch Kuro, probably because I compared on a 50-inch screen & not on a huge projector. I may compare again if I upgrade to a projector in the future. At present, I'm happy with my BDP and feel no need to change it anytime soon (except if I feel a pressing need to buy a universal player which can play my now defunct VCD collection).

As a general rule, anything OVER 3dE (calibration measurements, what I use when calibrating grey scales for example) can be percieved by most people with good eyesight

The S570 had errors as high as 7.5dE, and as noted above, these were static measurements. Real world picture movement would more than likely be far worse as the decoding chip is doing far more work.

It should also be noted that there would probably have been even worse static measurements if the whole scale had been measured from 0 - 255

1) My eyesight is a perfect 6/6 vision without glasses and no colour blindness.

2) Are you saying that anything over 3dE can be perceived, regardless of screen size?? So that means there should be a perceivable difference on a 14 inch screen as well??? Any links to prove your "general rule"?

 

[aliEnRIK]

1) My eyesight is a perfect 6/6 vision without glasses and no colour blindness.

2) Are you saying that anything over 3dE can be perceived, regardless of screen size?? So that means there should be a perceivable difference on a 14 inch screen as well??? Any links to prove your "general rule"?

Really not in the mood for tracking down information for someone thats only going to argue anyways

If you want my personal opinion - you use a Pioneer 500. All known measurements are under 3dE (so far as I remember) when fed with a perfect source to it. You paid a premium to buy said tv.

Having had experience with them myself I know what settings must be switched off to get the correct measurements from it (perhaps you dont?) and that it thrives on a clean mains supply (perhaps yours isnt?)

Regardless, what you can and cant perceive I really dont care about

 

[Clare Newsome]

Getting unnecessarily combative here, people.....

Please respect each others' opinions, or this thread is heading to locksville.

 

[idc]

so, one test from an "unknown source" suggests differences between players, that are only "allegedly" noticeable on a huge screen that 99% of people would never use anyway, and this thread of rejoicement is born, the believers are now interested in all anonymous measured tests then??

yet any other time that someone mentions tests (of which there are many) that measure no difference between bdp's, hdmi cables, mains cables, interconnects, speaker cables etc, the non believers are told not to believe/regurgitate everything they read on the "internet" and that they should trust their eyes and ears.

i think i get it now....

You can't prove non-existence of something, only existence. All the test that say there is no difference only proves that they didn't find it. Only tests that prove a difference have actually proved something...

What you can do to show that there is no difference is null testing and ABX testing. Record the signal sent by two blue ray players, then subtract one from the other and see what is left. If nothing is left then there is no difference. If something is left it will either be outwith know sight/hearing abilities or not. If what is left is within known sight/hearing abilities then we may be able to hear/see it.

To find out if we really can hear/see the difference an ABX will tell us. Play clips from the two blue ray players and call them A or B. Then play X which is either A or B and see how many correct answers are given.

If Null testing finds no difference or a very small difference and ABX finds no difference we have proved is there is no difference.

 

[bigboss]

People on the forum know who is in an argumentative mood usually when others' experience don't agree. I've already said in my first post that some can see a difference & some can't. I've never disputed your claim that you can see a difference, then why are you disputing mine? You haven't confirmed if people should be able to perceive a difference on a 14 inch screen of the measurements you've stated. From your post, I can only deduce that people don't need an expensive BDP if they have a Pioneer Kuro TV.

 

[The_Lhc]

To find out if we really can hear/see the difference an ABX will tell us. Play clips from the two blue ray players and call them A or B. Then play X which is either A or B and see how many correct answers are given.

See that's the bit I don't get, if you can see/hear a difference it doesn't matter if you can identify which is which, all that shows is that you can remember the difference , which is irrelevant, if you ask me (I believe studies have shown most people can't remember that sort of difference, therefore they will always fail an ABX test). All that matters is whether you can perceive a difference and if so, which one do you prefer, which presumably would be the one you'd buy.

There's a big gulf between perception of a difference and remembrance of a difference. Although they do make good titles for grunge bands...

 

[bigboss]

To find out if we really can hear/see the difference an ABX will tell us. Play clips from the two blue ray players and call them A or B. Then play X which is either A or B and see how many correct answers are given.

See that's the bit I don't get, if you can see/hear a difference it doesn't matter if you can identify which is which, all that shows is that you can remember the difference , which is irrelevant, if you ask me (I believe studies have shown most people can't remember that sort of difference, therefore they will always fail an ABX test). All that matters is whether you can perceive a difference and if so, which one do you prefer, which presumably would be the one you'd buy.

There's a big gulf between perception of a difference and remembrance of a difference. Although they do make good titles for grunge bands...

I could perceive a difference & know which was the superior amplifier during the Big Question I participated last year. Yes, it wasn't a true ABX test, but was a blind test nonetheless. I could say which sounded better & which sounded worse.

 

[Anonymous]

My only two penneth, hopefully worded without combativeness, concerns this sentence:

They then put a test disc on to see these differences on a huge calibrated projector - which to the people involved were 'possible to see'.

When people are told in advance that there are differences, which is how this reads, it's very easy to 'find' them. If this observation is to have meaning (and I'm not saying that it doesn't - I can't tell from the wording), the viewings should have been done without prompting.

Just finsihed reading James Randi's 'Flim flam', most enjoyable.

 

[f1only]

Surely though if something is callibrated, then tested using the right equipment, whether it is tv's BD players or whatever, if the test equipment used is the same & sees a difference then it is there.

Just because me or anyone in particular cant physically see or hear the difference does not mean its not there, it may well be out of our hearing, or sight range surely. How many people can see infrared coming out of a remote for example?

 

[Andrew Everard]

Just finsihed reading James Randi's 'Flim flam', most enjoyable.

Quid in the Amazing Randi box, please...

 

[Anonymous]

so, one test from an "unknown source" suggests differences between players, that are only "allegedly" noticeable on a huge screen that 99% of people would never use anyway, and this thread of rejoicement is born, the believers are now interested in all anonymous measured tests then??

No, it's a known source, and nothing 'allegedly' about it: it's just that as the OP rightly indicates, House Rules preclude publicity of that source. And the results were obtained by measurement, and then show to be visible on that large screen with the 'calibrated projector. You're trying to make a point based on a misreading again, max.

yet any other time that someone mentions tests (of which there are many) that measure no difference between bdp's, hdmi cables, mains cables, interconnects, speaker cables etc, the non believers are told not to believe/regurgitate everything they read on the "internet" and that they should trust their eyes and ears.

i think i get it now....

See? Knew we'd get there in the end.

i see, but if said known source found no difference then we'd be in either locksville or deletevill, right?

they don't preclude debates on the merits of the various AV cables, the loss or not of digital data, the validity of mains cables etc, but they're increasingly more discouraged here?

if you didn't participate then how do you know? you surely don't believe everything you read on the internet?

no, i'm trying to point out that until the spectacular revelations of this test, one that nobody here participated in, any other test revelations disclosed here were ridiculed, and the op's and those whose stance was backed by said tests revelations were asked if they believed everything they read on the internet.

unless i've misread something again?

 

[idc]

To find out if we really can hear/see the difference an ABX will tell us. Play clips from the two blue ray players and call them A or B. Then play X which is either A or B and see how many correct answers are given.

See that's the bit I don't get, if you can see/hear a difference it doesn't matter if you can identify which is which, all that shows is that you can remember the difference , which is irrelevant, if you ask me (I believe studies have shown most people can't remember that sort of difference, therefore they will always fail an ABX test). All that matters is whether you can perceive a difference and if so, which one do you prefer, which presumably would be the one you'd buy.

There's a big gulf between perception of a difference and remembrance of a difference. Although they do make good titles for grunge bands...

What ABX tells us is how much of a difference there really is and what causes that difference. If people get the difference 100% of the time then the difference is clear. Even over 90% tells us that there is a difference. Less and you are struggling to show that the difference is identifiable. Memory comes into it in as much as memory helps us to identify the difference between everything. If you can remember the difference after a long gap, there is a clear difference. If you cannot remember the difference after a short gap, then there is much less of a difference, or there is no difference.

Look at Sean Olives testing of speakers <<<clicky>>>. The first graph show that blind testing finds the differences between speakers are smaller than with sighted testing. What that tells us is that sight has an impact on what we hear.

That sight has an impact on what we hear helps to explain why some people find differences as night and day, others small and others not at all. Other factors such as buyer expectation and image of the product also play a part. If we like what we see it is likely to sound better. That is where the perception of a difference comes from.

So to back to the original point, two blue ray players may measure differently, how much of that difference is actually detectible is not clear, but we buy and prefer different blue ray players for a whole host of other reasons.