Bi wiring poll

Bi-Wiring

  • Yes, definitely.. for audible reasons

    Votes: 2 5.4%
  • Yes, definitely.. for other reasons

    Votes: 2 5.4%
  • I don't mind, either way it is ok

    Votes: 5 13.5%
  • No, it affects the midrange

    Votes: 2 5.4%
  • No, it doesn't do anything

    Votes: 22 59.5%
  • I don't know

    Votes: 4 10.8%

  • Total voters
    37

AJM1981

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2021
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One in the category 'if it doesn' t help, it doesn't hurt'.

Since a while in ages I have a free friday, household chorus are done and our kid is at school. So a moment to try and experiment with bi-wiring the Wharfedale Evo 4.2s.

I know that Bi-Amping is more of a thing, but Ive read some comments on bi wiring variating from cancelling out potential noise to receiving audible to non audible differences depending on the kind of speaker. On the other side a personal test stating that it kind of affected the mids in a negative way to which the bass and treble got more pronounced. Another test stated that it improved the soundstage.
 

12th Monkey

Moderator
Aug 31, 2015
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Maybe you should add a 'don't know' option - that's probably what I'd go for. I did biwire with my first, but no audible difference. I've biamped, which is definitely a good thing where it's an option.

Here's hoping for a semblance of respect for others' opinions as this is cable-related...
 

AJM1981

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2021
207
51
370
Maybe you should add a 'don't know' option - that's probably what I'd go for. I did biwire with my first, but no audible difference. I've biamped, which is definitely a good thing where it's an option.

Here's hoping for a semblance of respect for others' opinions as this is cable-related...
Added :)
 

AJM1981

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2021
207
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370
I will keep the wires attached but there is no audible difference at all. Even in the category of subtle changes I can sense more of a sound signature difference between the two internal Dacs of my streamer / amp compared to adding extra wire.
 

AJM1981

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2021
207
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370
I tried bi-wiring and bi-amping when I had Arcam and Mission.
I couldn’t detect any difference.

The Focal speakers I have now only have a single pair of binding posts. So, no option to try with these.
Bi-Amping should be a bit more audible in theory. I could hear a clear difference in bass handling between my old an new amp, not in any terms better, but different. Then it is offcourse the question if there is anything noticable different between the mids and highs in favor of the other amp, to get a "perfect" hybrid.
 

AJM1981

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2021
207
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370
and possibly Affects your Bank balance.... :)
My thoughts on cables are that when having well designed speakers, they most likely also have a well designed backside with binding posts and jumpers. Then adding a cheap cable from the diy store looks a bit off compared to a premium designed cable.

For that reason I connected my silver cables with transparant mantle which I kind of received as a gift when buying my old speakers and amp. But simple cables are fine too.

The extra cables I have used are dead cheap diy store ones. :)
 
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AJM1981

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2021
207
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370
Speaking about bank balance.. I recently thought about degrading my streamer / amp to pre-amp and buying a compact tube amp. :rolleyes:

#thatsanothertopic
 

Sliced Bread

Well-known member
Jul 28, 2010
438
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Well even Chord has stopped selling bi-wire,

They explain why two thirds of the way down this article:
 

ThisIsJimmy

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2020
225
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Maybe you should add a 'don't know' option - that's probably what I'd go for. I did biwire with my first, but no audible difference. I've biamped, which is definitely a good thing where it's an option.

Here's hoping for a semblance of respect for others' opinions as this is cable-related...
Everytime "I don't know" comes up in a poll, I can't help but think of this :LOL::

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McdjBaChdBA

On a more serious note, I don't understand the need to Bi-Wire in this day and age. If it's purpose on seperating high and low frequencies is to do with audio processing and datathroughput then surely tech has progressed enough to ensure:

1. Limited/No noise interference should be generated via DAC or AMP
2. Processing Chips should be more than capable of dealing with the audio throughput
3. Cable quality should be sufficient to deliver that from the AMP to the speakers (otherwise what is the point of having it) Surely if you had multiple cables of the same quality you'd encounter just as much audible deterioration because the cable length to the speaker wouldn't change between having one or two. And if it can't deliver the sound properly you'd just buy a better single cable.
 
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Tinman1952

Well-known member
May 19, 2021
636
316
770
Everytime "I don't know" comes up in a poll, I can't help but think of this :LOL::

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McdjBaChdBA

On a more serious note, I don't understand the need to Bi-Wire in this day and age. If it's purpose on seperating high and low frequencies is to do with audio processing and datathroughput then surely tech has progressed enough to ensure:

1. Limited/No noise interference should be generated via DAC or AMP
2. Processing Chips should be more than capable of dealing with the audio throughput
3. Cable quality should be sufficient to deliver that from the AMP to the speakers (otherwise what is the point of having it) Surely if you had multiple cables of the same quality you'd encounter just as much audible deterioration because the cable length to the speaker wouldn't change between having one or two. And if it can't deliver the sound properly you'd just buy a better single cable.
There are no ‘processing chips’ in passive speaker crossovers. 🙄
Plus the idea of biwiring is to separate the high frequency from the low frequency signals in the wire…..
whether you like the result of course is up to you.
 
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Tinman1952

Well-known member
May 19, 2021
636
316
770
It's nothing to do with frequency signals. It is simply a way of directing signal to separate parts of the speakers crossover. Pointless really.
Well I beg to disagree…it’s everything to do with frequency signals.
The proponents would say that separating the high and low frequency signals improves sound quality.
However…my experience is that it actually makes it worse… losing some midrange. Of course it depends on the crossover design too.
 
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ThisIsJimmy

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2020
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Well I beg to disagree…it’s everything to do with frequency signals.
The proponents would say that separating the high and low frequency signals improves sound quality.
However…my experience is that it actually makes it worse… losing some midrange. Of course it depends on the crossover design too.
Ok, so if this is to seperate frequency you must want to do that for a reason. If it is to do with seperation of low or high signal noise to help eliminate Harmonic or Modulation Distortion then that's now mute with the new generation of DACS and AMPS (certainly headphone amps it is anyway). If it's a crafty way of achieving addtional power to your speakers if each of the bi-wire is amplified accordingly, then i guess in that regard it would be like the equivalent of balance to some extent on headphones which would make them more audible. But if you lose some of the mid-range at the cross over point, that doesn't sound like much of a benefit to me and would introduce a V shape into the sound.
 

Gray

Well-known member
As bi-wiring is just two parallel runs of cable from the same amp output, it's logical to think of all frequencies going down both runs.
But, as this (famous old) article describes, the electron flow in each run is frequency dependent, thanks to the crossover's filtering.
(None of which makes bi-wiring any less pointless to the majority of people (y))
 
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Tinman1952

Well-known member
May 19, 2021
636
316
770
As bi-wiring is just two parallel runs of cable from the same amp output, it's logical to think of all frequencies going down both runs.
But, as this (famous old) article describes, the electron flow in each run is frequency dependent, thanks to the crossover's filtering.
(None of which makes bi-wiring any less pointless to the majority of people (y))
Thanks! 😁👍
 

AJM1981

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2021
207
51
370
Everytime "I don't know" comes up in a poll, I can't help but think of this :LOL::

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McdjBaChdBA

On a more serious note, I don't understand the need to Bi-Wire in this day and age. If it's purpose on seperating high and low frequencies is to do with audio processing and datathroughput then surely tech has progressed enough to ensure:

1. Limited/No noise interference should be generated via DAC or AMP
2. Processing Chips should be more than capable of dealing with the audio throughput
3. Cable quality should be sufficient to deliver that from the AMP to the speakers (otherwise what is the point of having it) Surely if you had multiple cables of the same quality you'd encounter just as much audible deterioration because the cable length to the speaker wouldn't change between having one or two. And if it can't deliver the sound properly you'd just buy a better single cable.
Sometimes I wonder if those 4 binding posts are not a relic from the past and were initially made for bi-amping alltogether. Bi-wiring seems to be something marketed as a variation for those who couldn't stand they were left with 2 empty binding posts to connect a cable.

Whereas Bi-Amping is actually the need for 2 reasonable fine amps performing a task where 1 decent will do it just as fine. I can imagine it was more of a need in the 70s and 80s.

Because 'if' bi-wiring and bi amping would really improve something nowadays it would not make any sense that plenty of high end speaker builders just use two posts.Many brands also seem to have them to look more premium.
 

Sliced Bread

Well-known member
Jul 28, 2010
438
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Sometimes I wonder if those 4 binding posts are not a relic from the past and were initially made for bi-amping alltogether. Bi-wiring seems to be something marketed as a variation for those who couldn't stand they were left with 2 empty binding posts to connect a cable.

Whereas Bi-Amping is actually the need for 2 reasonable fine amps performing a task where 1 decent will do it just as fine. I can imagine it was more of a need in the 70s and 80s.

Because 'if' bi-wiring and bi amping would really improve something nowadays it would not make any sense that plenty of high end speaker builders just use two posts.Many brands also seem to have them to look more premium.
To be fair it probably depends how hard the speakers are to drive.

ATC’s have dual binding posts and some models have 3. This stands up though as they are pretty difficult to drive and even ATC’s own active SCM40’s have two amplifiers per speaker. Interestingly it’s class A for the highs and class A/B for the lows. Best of both worlds 👍. If in this particular case one amp was better than two then I imagine they would have just done that as they’re selling a single product and not multiple boxes so they’ll be looking for a balance of performance and economy.
 
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AJM1981

Well-known member
Mar 26, 2021
207
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It could well be that some speakers still need the Bi-Amping option cause they are harder to drive.

Though many lower cost B&Ws and Wharfedales are described as being super easy to handle. In that case it seems more a choice in consistancy and design estethics. The designteam of the modern Wharfedales even puts effort in the way the Jumpers are looking on the Evo series to create a great looking silhouet. Totally not important sound wise, but ok.. they also kind of function as pieces of furniture.
 
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ThisIsJimmy

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2020
225
93
370
As bi-wiring is just two parallel runs of cable from the same amp output, it's logical to think of all frequencies going down both runs.
But, as this (famous old) article describes, the electron flow in each run is frequency dependent, thanks to the crossover's filtering.
(None of which makes bi-wiring any less pointless to the majority of people (y))
So reading that article that does make references to harmonic and modulation distortion as a means of seperating and tuning it out and allowing you to manually set the cross over to give you the cleanest possible sound. On the one hand Q Accoustics and QED are part of the same group, so they may have their own purpose for pushing this argument (to make you buy more of their cables). Others though do think differently. The below is worth a read:


Looking at this objectively, it does come back to what i was inferring to earlier. If we take the Q Accoustics article as is, and the reason for having this as an old school way to help reduce modulation distortion presented by the crossover filters (needed due to the distortion brought about by the increase of power), then the objective should be eliminating distortion to begin with to remove the need for those filters in the first place.

The most obvious recent example of this tech which ripped up the rule book and changed audio forever has been demonstrated by the THX AAA feed forward error correction technology.


The below i found a really good video that I recommend worth watching:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZw-PZFpcxw


Now whilst this tech has been implemented effecitvely in low power SOC headphone amp devices which became the benchmark that has turned the headphone industry on it's head, it would seem the difficulty of implementing this tech in Powered amplifiers must be harder....either that or companies are still taking advantage of consumers.

After trawling the internet, the only device that i've seen that has implemented this is the Benchmark AHB2. As such the AHB2 doesn't need the high and low filters, and the published distortion figures seem to be in another league to their competition.

On searching for it on ASR, Amir was fortunate enough to get one to review:


At this point this level of performance should be what everyone else should be using as a benchmark (pun not intended) if Powered/speaker amplifiers are going to have a chance of competing with Headphone amplifiers in quality distortion free audio.
 

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