Just to come back to Joel's earlier comment and the rationale in general of putting a sub-£200 source up against another source at four times the price, there will typically be some lag between the two. The Debut is an okay deck, but nothing to really write-home about up against the CD92 - the same logic applies to a CD source up against a £900 turntable. Hell, up against a P3-24, or an AudioNote TT1 or TT2. No contest in either of the latter cases.
At price points vinyl becomes very difficult to beat.
Anyone care to suggest a CD spinner that can compete with my Michell Gyrodec SE running the MC Dynavector 10X5?
Anyone care to suggest a CD spinner that can compete with my Michell Gyrodec SE running the MC Dynavector 10X5?
Well my frisbee spinner is by all accounts a reasonably good one but the urge to go back to black ( sorry ,yes i know pretty poor ) proved too much and my new baby arrived yesterday. Benefits ? Playing all the albums that i didnt replicate on cd for starters,once they have had a good clean first mind. Cd is a convenient way of listening to music but having grown up with vinyl i miss the touchy feely tactile bit for starters. Will i be dissapointed if i make a comparison,i doubt it very much.
Oh, my new baby is name michell, sorry jd
Oh, my new baby is name michell, sorry jd
John Duncan
Well-known member
I suppose Linn is a bit too obvious...although I'll grant you, my wife thought my suggestion of Strathclyde a bit weird for some reason.
There will always be those that prefer the convenience of digital over vinyl. However, I think one of the things that happens with digital (and I do have plenty of both), is that this convienience means you tend not to listen to a whole album as you would with vinyl, and I for one am grateful for that. You see with digital, CD, Mp3 and so on - we tend to dip into albums and not give the slow burners a chance. However, I've always found that the songs I like the most are the ones I had to learn to like and wouldn't have ever heard or been forced somewhat to hear them, if it wasn't for listening to them on vinyl. Therefore, I believe you get a better appreciate for the music you're listening too and tend not to simply dip into albums for instant gratification of a few popular choices within.
As to sound quality. Much like many on here. It depends on the gear and the record. I've purchased second hand and found some crackers, but equally founds some dogs. Also, it depends on the pressing etc. Spend equally on your deck, cartridge and tone arm cable, don't skimp on a phono stage either. Any part in the chain will ruin the good that the higher quality parts will contribute. Shop around for vinyl. I tend to get records from artists that I enjoyed from my youth and teens - prog rock fyi. There's plenty of really good stuff out there.
Go to a dealer for gods sake that deals in vinyl. Listen to 3 setups, 1 at your budget, 1 below and 1 just above. Look at the reviews on WhatHifi. Consider what you already have and what you maybe able to afford soon too. Consider also the type of music you're going to listen to.
Finally, to those that keep saying that vinyl is warm.... sigh. Yes, perhaps, maybe. It's also some of the punchiest, lively, dynamic, clear and thundering good music you will come across - but only if you get all the parts working together. Can be a pain in the *** to begin with, but once setup, you can simply enjoy and you appreciate the music, the vinyl, the art, the sound and your system more for doing it.
Stu
As to sound quality. Much like many on here. It depends on the gear and the record. I've purchased second hand and found some crackers, but equally founds some dogs. Also, it depends on the pressing etc. Spend equally on your deck, cartridge and tone arm cable, don't skimp on a phono stage either. Any part in the chain will ruin the good that the higher quality parts will contribute. Shop around for vinyl. I tend to get records from artists that I enjoyed from my youth and teens - prog rock fyi. There's plenty of really good stuff out there.
Go to a dealer for gods sake that deals in vinyl. Listen to 3 setups, 1 at your budget, 1 below and 1 just above. Look at the reviews on WhatHifi. Consider what you already have and what you maybe able to afford soon too. Consider also the type of music you're going to listen to.
Finally, to those that keep saying that vinyl is warm.... sigh. Yes, perhaps, maybe. It's also some of the punchiest, lively, dynamic, clear and thundering good music you will come across - but only if you get all the parts working together. Can be a pain in the *** to begin with, but once setup, you can simply enjoy and you appreciate the music, the vinyl, the art, the sound and your system more for doing it.
Stu
MusoStu:
There will always be those that prefer the convenience of digital over vinyl. However, I think one of the things that happens with digital (and I do have plenty of both), is that this convienience means you tend not to listen to a whole album as you would with vinyl, and I for one am grateful for that. You see with digital, CD, Mp3 and so on - we tend to dip into albums and not give the slow burners a chance. However, I've always found that the songs I like the most are the ones I had to learn to like and wouldn't have ever heard or been forced somewhat to hear them, if it wasn't for listening to them on vinyl. Therefore, I believe you get a better appreciate for the music you're listening too and tend not to simply dip into albums for instant gratification of a few popular choices within.
Agree totaly with that stu
There will always be those that prefer the convenience of digital over vinyl. However, I think one of the things that happens with digital (and I do have plenty of both), is that this convienience means you tend not to listen to a whole album as you would with vinyl, and I for one am grateful for that. You see with digital, CD, Mp3 and so on - we tend to dip into albums and not give the slow burners a chance. However, I've always found that the songs I like the most are the ones I had to learn to like and wouldn't have ever heard or been forced somewhat to hear them, if it wasn't for listening to them on vinyl. Therefore, I believe you get a better appreciate for the music you're listening too and tend not to simply dip into albums for instant gratification of a few popular choices within.
Agree totaly with that stu
6th.replicant
Well-known member
Coloured vinyl? Seem to remember that back in the day, coloured vinyl was deemed to have bright & tinny sound (yellow was worst) compared to regular black. And the gold(!) 'limited release, collector's edition' of New Boots & Panties (Ian Dury & The Blockheads) had all the clarity of a 78 that had been used for beach Frisbee & dinner plate duties, then buried 10ft-deep in moist sand, for 25 years.
As for remastered CD vs original vinyl, surely there're many examples of the former usurping the latter? For instance, David Bowie's live albums - David Live & Stage - recently had major surgery (overseen by original producer Tony Visconti & DB) that not only reveals much more detail & clarity with greater top- & bottom-end, but also restores instruments & vocals previously 'lost' in the original mixes. Of course, Miles Davis's Kind of Blue has to be the 'King of CD remasters' because it clearly improves the sound & rectifies the original vinyl release's duff pitch, which was sharp (the studio engineer ran the master tape at the wrong speed).
IMHO, I'd also cite favourably the CD remasters of The Doors, Neil Young, Roxy Music, Stevie Wonder, Cream & John Coltrane, among others. Notable exceptions are The Police, Blondie & Ultravox's remasters - they sound 'dead', like iTunes DLs burnt to CD. (BTW, recently saw Ultravox at the IoW Festival & they were excellent + they also had a very impressive sound system.)
However, perhaps there is a vinyl format that CD could never beat (albeit one that requires much shelf space): the sound of a track as a 12-inch single compared to its LP version - the former always seemed to have much greater detail, a broader sound stage & more defined bass?
As for remastered CD vs original vinyl, surely there're many examples of the former usurping the latter? For instance, David Bowie's live albums - David Live & Stage - recently had major surgery (overseen by original producer Tony Visconti & DB) that not only reveals much more detail & clarity with greater top- & bottom-end, but also restores instruments & vocals previously 'lost' in the original mixes. Of course, Miles Davis's Kind of Blue has to be the 'King of CD remasters' because it clearly improves the sound & rectifies the original vinyl release's duff pitch, which was sharp (the studio engineer ran the master tape at the wrong speed).
IMHO, I'd also cite favourably the CD remasters of The Doors, Neil Young, Roxy Music, Stevie Wonder, Cream & John Coltrane, among others. Notable exceptions are The Police, Blondie & Ultravox's remasters - they sound 'dead', like iTunes DLs burnt to CD. (BTW, recently saw Ultravox at the IoW Festival & they were excellent + they also had a very impressive sound system.)
However, perhaps there is a vinyl format that CD could never beat (albeit one that requires much shelf space): the sound of a track as a 12-inch single compared to its LP version - the former always seemed to have much greater detail, a broader sound stage & more defined bass?
John Duncan
Well-known member
6th.replicant:However, perhaps there is a vinyl format that CD could never beat (albeit one that requires much shelf space): the sound of a track as a 12-inch single compared to its LP version - the former always seemed to have much greater detail, a broader sound stage & more defined bass?
Very often yes - they had lots more room to play with in the mastering...
Very often yes - they had lots more room to play with in the mastering...
chebby:
Ooh a P2.
Snap...
This photograph should be enough to make you want to get into vinyl.
By the way Chebs, what`s the story behind your latest avatar?
Ooh a P2.
Snap...
This photograph should be enough to make you want to get into vinyl.
By the way Chebs, what`s the story behind your latest avatar?
6th.replicant:Coloured vinyl? Seem to remember that back in the day, coloured vinyl was deemed to have bright & tinny sound (yellow was worst) compared to regular black. And the gold(!) 'limited release, collector's edition' of New Boots & Panties (Ian Dury & The Blockheads) had all the clarity of a 78 that had been used for beach Frisbee & dinner plate duties, then buried 10ft-deep in moist sand, for 25 years. IMHO, I'd also cite favourably the CD remasters of The Doors, Neil Young, Roxy Music, Stevie Wonder, Cream & John Coltrane, among others. the sound of a track as a 12-inch single compared to its LP version - the former always seemed to have much greater detail, a broader sound stage & more defined bass?
Coloured vinyls were meant for collecting rather than for playing.
Don`t let Neil Young hear you say that! He believes that the current digital age will be looked back on in the future as a disastrous time for music.
12" singles Yep. The less music per side the better.
Coloured vinyls were meant for collecting rather than for playing.
Don`t let Neil Young hear you say that! He believes that the current digital age will be looked back on in the future as a disastrous time for music.
12" singles Yep. The less music per side the better.
Thanks everyone for the comments and I shall indeed report back on my findings once I have auditioned some turntables, although I do fancy the Project with the built in pre amp as my audiolab is lacking a phono stage!!
6th.replicant: As for remastered CD vs original vinyl, surely there're many examples of the former usurping the latter? For instance, David Bowie's live albums - David Live & Stage - recently had major surgery (overseen by original producer Tony Visconti & DB) that not only reveals much more detail & clarity with greater top- & bottom-end, but also restores instruments & vocals previously 'lost' in the original mixes.
Agreed. However, the remasters of "Stage" and "David Live" from 2005 were not released on vinyl (more's the pity) so we can never know which format would have been best.
The main problem with Vinyl was the money grabbing record companies. Most of the pops and crackles, at least the permanent ones, is a result of re-cycled vinyl. A lot (all) of this was melted down, labels included, then used in lighter and lighter pressings.
I must admit I do miss the extra space you have in LP's. One of the reasons I don't use downloads is I like to have the tactile experience of having the CD at the side of me. It was even better with LPs but the quality of "normally" priced vinyl was just getting worse and worse so the LP12 was retired.
I am not a luddite or a romantic but whilst conceeding that vinyl could have gone a lot futher I have settled for my Cyrus/Spendor system for CD only.
I must admit I do miss the extra space you have in LP's. One of the reasons I don't use downloads is I like to have the tactile experience of having the CD at the side of me. It was even better with LPs but the quality of "normally" priced vinyl was just getting worse and worse so the LP12 was retired.
I am not a luddite or a romantic but whilst conceeding that vinyl could have gone a lot futher I have settled for my Cyrus/Spendor system for CD only.
One of the benefits of vinyl for me " although I do not as yet own a turntable " is its visual impact.
My system at present is excellent, and I have gone as far as I want to and am totally satisfied with the result. But the only problem is that I can't see the process.
With vinyl you can actually see the process ie the needle going along its merry way in the groove and creating a signal within the cartridge and sending out a tiny electrical output along to your phono stage then to your amplifier, this may not be important to some but to me a mechanical engineer by trade I like to see whats going on.
So when you put a CD in its drawer or slot it disappears from veiw, the process hidden within a box. Tha same with wireless from my computer to my Squeezebox, all the signal flies through the air again hidden from veiw and magically reappears out of the speakers, now both methods produce wonderfull music.
I got to thinking that all I need is a good quality second hand classic deck that I can improve and tweak to my hearts content and satify my need for mechanical reproduction.
My system at present is excellent, and I have gone as far as I want to and am totally satisfied with the result. But the only problem is that I can't see the process.
With vinyl you can actually see the process ie the needle going along its merry way in the groove and creating a signal within the cartridge and sending out a tiny electrical output along to your phono stage then to your amplifier, this may not be important to some but to me a mechanical engineer by trade I like to see whats going on.
So when you put a CD in its drawer or slot it disappears from veiw, the process hidden within a box. Tha same with wireless from my computer to my Squeezebox, all the signal flies through the air again hidden from veiw and magically reappears out of the speakers, now both methods produce wonderfull music.
I got to thinking that all I need is a good quality second hand classic deck that I can improve and tweak to my hearts content and satify my need for mechanical reproduction.
chebby
Well-known member
MENISCUS:I got to thinking that all I need is a good quality second hand classic deck that I can improve and tweak to my hearts content and satify my need for mechanical reproduction.
Michell Gyro SE with Michell TecnoArm A...
http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/pic/tur/michell_gyrose.jpg
Looks 'mechanical'
Michell Gyro SE with Michell TecnoArm A...
http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/pic/tur/michell_gyrose.jpg
Looks 'mechanical'
chebby:
MENISCUS:I got to thinking that all I need is a good quality second hand classic deck that I can improve and tweak to my hearts content and satify my need for mechanical reproduction.
Michell Gyro SE with Michell TecnoArm A...
http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/pic/tur/michell_gyrose.jpg
Looks 'mechanical'
Yep it certainly does chebby I would love a Michell, but at present a little out of my price range even second hand. I was thinking more along the lines of a Linn LP12, or Thorens TD 150/160 with a good quality arm.............
MENISCUS:I got to thinking that all I need is a good quality second hand classic deck that I can improve and tweak to my hearts content and satify my need for mechanical reproduction.
Michell Gyro SE with Michell TecnoArm A...
http://www.michell-engineering.co.uk/pic/tur/michell_gyrose.jpg
Looks 'mechanical'
Yep it certainly does chebby I would love a Michell, but at present a little out of my price range even second hand. I was thinking more along the lines of a Linn LP12, or Thorens TD 150/160 with a good quality arm.............
I have recently added a Modest Vinyl Setup to my system, the Genie III and Phono Box MkII, they are half the Value of my CD when it was new, and I will admit I prefer CD for outright detail, but I am really enjoying playing some of the old vinyl I have had sitting in a loft for 20 years and there is nothing better that rummaging round a charity shop picking up an album you have not heard for ages and paying 50p for said album, or £1 for a Readers Digest Box-set of Light classics with 12 perfect LP's inside.
I find it is a Tactile thing and am using the LP for daytime listening and background music, late night still sees the CD's come out. I may upgrade the TT in future I may not but for now I am enjoying it for what it is, it is particulaly good for listening to material that I love but do not listen to on CD any more because my system has become too revealing and it sounds fatiguing.
I find it is a Tactile thing and am using the LP for daytime listening and background music, late night still sees the CD's come out. I may upgrade the TT in future I may not but for now I am enjoying it for what it is, it is particulaly good for listening to material that I love but do not listen to on CD any more because my system has become too revealing and it sounds fatiguing.
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