Benefits of vinyl??

[admin_exported]

Being a digital music lover and with my current setup seeing me stream music from my laptop into the fantastic Dac Magic from CA I have an romantic notion to purchase a turntable in the sub £500 bracket. Whilst I love the convenience of digital I just find the romantic notion of taking an LP from its sleve, placing it on the turntable then lifiting the tone arm onto the vinyl far to excititng to resist!!

My question is what will I notice in terms of the sound quality??

 

[chebby]

'Sub £500' will just get you a Rega P3-24 with Elys 2 cartridge factory fitted and aligned.

Hopefully you have a nearby Rega dealer and they can demonstrate it for you. Far better to hear vinyl before reading descriptions of it. (Usually and - mostly - wrongly described as 'warm'.)

A Technics SL-1210 Mk2 (or Mk5) is another idea (costs anywhere from £399 - £669 depending on finish and version and dealer.) However these are difficult to find one to listen to before buying.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

I concur - you really need to get to a dealer to get a dem.

The big variable with Vinyl is the quality of the disc itself, and the pressing thereof.

2nd hand vinyl is a gamble, but new is not necessarily a good indicator either.

For instance, I have a 1st press "With The Beatles" that has seen 40+ years of use (was my mums, then mine) and it still blows away the CD, but I have a brand new re-press (direct metal master) of Revolver that is blown away by the CD.

You can see below my kit for reference. I wouldn't be spending a huge amount on a TT if you don't already have a sizable vinyl collection, but saying that, a cheap (sub £200 TT like a Systemdek/Axis or similar) turntable can be a good way of dipping your toe in the vinyl water so to speak.

You also won't lose much if you decide that vinyl isn't for you.

But to summise, I always find vinyl more involving, if ultimately less detailed than CD.

 

[chebby]

I took delivery of a brand new 'Tom Tom Club' LP this morning. It is a 2009 Universal re-pressing on 180gm vinyl to commemorate Island's 50 years. I am normally 'leary' of 180gm 'audiophile' pressings and (especially ) 'remasters' but this one is bloomin' superb!

One of my rare double-ups where I have the CD already and, yes, I played one track from both to compare. ('Under the Boardwalk' because it is an end-of-side track - worst case - and because I like it.)

Despite sounding great on the CD player, the LP trumped it. (The CD is an original not re-mastered.)

(Even got a card in the the sleeve with token for free MP3 download

)

http://www.backtoblackvinyl.com/

I am going to investigate some more of them.

 

[Fenton Beasley]

fatboyslimfast:I concur - you really need to get to a dealer to get a dem.

The big variable with Vinyl is the quality of the disc itself, and the pressing thereof.

2nd hand vinyl is a gamble, but new is not necessarily a good indicator either. .

I also concur. I have recently bought a very expensive new vinyl copy of Dusty Springfield's Dusty In Memphis that I had to give away to a charity shop and buy again on (Rhino Deluxe Version) CD (with loads of extras but that's beside the point).

The 180g vinyl version on the 4 Men With Beards label was bloody awful. So much sibilance; I never knew Dusty had a lisp! It had to go.

 

[the record spot]

For me vinyl has never been the "warm and fuzzy" article that many journos seem to write about; as a format, it's as vibrant and lively as you want it to be. It's hugely tweakable format, as a minimum you can swap the cartridge, but - and Chebby's aforementioned Technics is a prime example indeed - you can virtually strip down and rebuild a deck to customise it and / or improve accordingly.

My own Rega P3 merely has a new cartridge (AT440MLa) and a Ringmat to replace the stock felt mat. It gives out a wonderful sound though and really kicks. Not heard it for a while though to keep it out the kids reach...!

Benefits: wonderful music playing experience, tactile, classic album covers, the whole process of playing an LP, coloured vinyl, limited editions, tweaks, classic decks (Garrard 301 / 401 and the Loricraft Garrard 501, Thorens TD150 or TD160, Linn, Townshend, Strathclyde, Michell, Transcriptors...to name but a few!), an abundance of good quality vinyl (incidentally dear WHFS&V staffers, thank you for now NOT referring to vinyl and source music in general as "software" - that term more than anything made me want to reach for some hack's neck a decade or so back in the mag: Gaaaaaah!!!) and an abundance which is relatively cheap and easy to come by too.

 

[Big Chris]

Benefits of vinyl?

You can see the artwork better.

;-)

 

[Gort1951]

Click...pop...Click...pop...Click...pop...Click...pop...etc.

I still have a collection of vinyls that I don't use as I sold my Technics deck ages ago. The covers are better than CD's but there are too many dis-advantages.

Your Dog chases a toy on the floor whilst a record is playing and the needle flies over the record. Pain in the ass skipping a track and turning record over. Adjusting and replacing the needle, cleaning records and setting the disk size 33.3, 45 and 78.

The space records take up. Blowing the dust off before playing and using cleaners.

Remote control --- 21st century device.

Did I mention clicking and popping?

Funny thing is that some people actually like it, I've listened to a few dance tracks with samples from vinyl and they intentionally keep it in.

I think they went out with the Dinosaurs. I prefer digital music and although analogue is better than a standard CD most people have gotten used to the sound of digital music.

I remember a time when Sony CD/DVD players wouldn't even play MP3's probably due to piracy or something but now they have no choice.

Most people don't even know what a record player is.

There's also DJ's and scratching but I never got into that.

It's mostly about convenience.

 

[chebby]

I think the whole of that last post could have been lifted from a Philips or Sony promo spiel from 1983. All completely Saurian unlike vinyl that is on the threshold of seeing off yet another format.

This guy ( his name is Norman) was told he was a 'Dinosaur' about 40 years ago since when he has barely had a day unemployed.

Who would have thought a blacksmith would be inundated with work in the 21st century, in the middle of a city! (Blacksmith with website.)

I am also having fun importing tracks from vinyl to iTunes courtesy of VinylStudio software. Sounds great.

No pops or clicks here.

ps. The dinosaurs thrived for 160 million years and some of them evolved into birds. Not so shabby. Always amazes me when people use them as an example of inability to adapt. Whereas if the entire history of the Earth were the span of your outstretched arms then the period from the appearance of the first known homonid until now would be equivalent to just one light stroke with a nail file. The amount of time we have known of Dinosaurs would be a nail molecule and the amount of time we have spent disparaging their 'hopelessness', an atom from the molecule.

Just a thought.

 

[the record spot]

Gort1951:

...but there are too many dis-advantages.
Your Dog chases a toy on the floor whilst a record is playing and the needle flies over the record. Pain in the ass skipping a track and turning record over. Adjusting and replacing the needle, cleaning records and setting the disk size 33.3, 45 and 78.

The space records take up. Blowing the dust off before playing and using cleaners.

Remote control --- 21st century device.

Did I mention clicking and popping?

i) Either the playing arm tracking weight or anti-skate is incorrectly set-up, or you've got your deck badly isolated from external vibration.

ii) Can't comment about the PITA element of turning a record over, but track skipping is a rarity on my 500-plus LPs on the basis that I take care of them. That doesn't mean a religious cleaning programme either, just that they're well looked after (and selected) records. It's not exactly a lifetime's work or chore either.

iii) Adjusting and replacing the needle? What is this, the Dansette Society's annual gripe-fest? You put the cartridge on, or refit the stylus to the cartridge body if the design permits, you set the relevant tolerances on the arm and that's it. Job done. Once!

iv) Yes, records take up space. Can't deny that, but that's a side effect of having them, obviously, not something that appeals to everyone, but seeing a huge record collection in front of me in a shop or library or wherever is as good as browsing a shelf-full of books IMO.

v) Maybe if you'd spent a bit more time blowing dust off and cleaning an LP, you wouldn't have them skipping so much - cause and effect! See ii above...

vi) Remote control? Buy a fully automatic deck then...!

 

[smuggs]

i think he ment about records skipping was that if you like tracks 2,4,5,9,12 you cant sit down can of beer and the remote and enjoy. your up and down like a yo-yo.

i admit that record are ok while there is music but in quite areas or soft music its very hard to get no feed back.

Plus i think cds/hard drive music is better at the minute(only my view) cause say when there in a studio they alter the volume of drums/vocels ect to work well. were on records they leave it alone, yes it sounds more live but at times vocels are out done with instruments.

 

[chebby]

smuggs:i think he ment about records skipping was that if you like tracks 2,4,5,9,12 you cant sit down can of beer and the remote and enjoy. your up and down like a yo-yo.

Buy records with music you like rather than LPs with just one or two favourite tracks. Those are best bought in compilations or downloaded as single tracks. As I mentioned above, I have recently taken to ripping such favourites from vinyl into my iTunes for those casual, feet-up, beer in hand moments that you refer to. They compare extremely well to lossless rips from CD or iTunes downloads.

smuggs:i admit that record are ok while there is music but in quite areas or soft music its very hard to get no feed back.

I get no such 'feedback' because the turntable is properly isolated, away from speakers, and the stand is on a concrete floor. People with 'live' floors tend to use wall mounted turntable supports or a purpose built shelf.

You don't need to admit that records are ok. It is not a crime.

smuggs:Plus i think cds/hard drive music is better at the minute(only my view) cause say when there in a studio they alter the volume of drums/vocels ect to work well. were on records they leave it alone...

Yes, the modern tendency is for some teenager (it seems) to "re-master" a classic by ramping up the levels from every channel until they are all equally loud then slap on some compression to make it all more friendly to an MP3 phone with £2 earbuds. There are - of course - some modern re-mastered LPs that suffer this fate too alas. But generally it is better to have the original, unmolested, recording whether on LP or CD (or even streamed).

 

[chebby]

Hands up all those who have actually heard a well recorded, well looked after LP on a properly set-up turntable?

Back in 1978 (when everyone had vinyl) I had a weekend/holiday job working in a hifi store, and I would estimate that - even then - only a couple of people out of every hundred knew how to set-up a turntable (even the easy ones) or apply correct tracking force/antiskate etc or who even bothered to periodically change the stylus. Such people - ones who toss the instructions before the box is unpacked and blu-tack a 2p coin on a headshell when a cartridge skips - also cared little for the state of their LPs.

To such people CDs were always going to sound better, even on a Binatone, because it was a plug-n-play medium requiring no knowledge or care or thought whatsoever.

I was brought up to be interested in how things worked and even the small amount of knowledge needed to get the best from vinyl made the medium more interesting and involving. If you have set the thing up and aligned the cartridge and experimented with the best tracking force, and taken some care in siting the turntable and some care for the LPs themselves, then you have more of an 'investment' in what comes out of the speakers.

I have never felt any such involvement from digital until I got a DAC and could start learning again how to get the best out of some equipment and doing neat things like ripping vinyl to digital and listening to vinyl on an iPhone

 

[JoelSim]

I too had that romantic notion a few months ago, albeit with a £200 deck and a £140 phono amp. It sounded as poor as a church mouse compared to my CDP.

Have sold it all now and will concentrate on CDs, and in the future on a hi-end server I would imagine.

ÿ

ÿ

 

[chebby]

I remember that. You had made up your mind before you even began and decided that if a used Project Debut could not 'beat' a CD player worth £900 (when new) then vinyl must therefore be rubbish.

On another occasion you plugged an MP3 player into your system (not even via a DAC) and decided that computer based music must be rubbish too.

 

[JoelSim]

chebby:
I remember that. You had made up your mind before you even began and decided that if a used Project Debut could not 'beat' a CD player worth £900 (when new) then vinyl must therefore be rubbish.

On another occasion you plugged an MP3 player into your system (not even via a DAC) and decided that computer based music must be rubbish too.

I did make it clear in the above post about the discrepancy on pricing. And I didn't make up my mind beforehand otherwise I wouldn't have shelled out on a Graham Slee phono amp.

The difference was night and day though and I lost interest, especially given the fact my vinyl collection consisted of about 50 records, only 20 of which were any good.

I did, however, enjoy the whole record procedure, and I was a bit disappointed that the sound was so poor in comparison, really very very poor compared to the CDP.

And the iPod incident was a couple of years ago, January 2007 to be precise, way before the DAC became big again when I tested Fleetwood Mac's Rumours A/B against an Arcam 7, and again the difference was astonishing, significantly poorer than the turntable I would think although I don't have a means of verifying that last comment. It was like listening through a duvet cover.

ÿ

ÿ

 

[Greenwich_Man]

I like vinyl - and a looked after LP usually sounds better than its CD counterpart.
When the CD has been recently remastered I tend to find more detail in the new CD
However the CD lacks the warmth of the looked after LP

 

[chebby]

Joel, you think nothing of spending out on £2000 speakers or cable upgrades worth £780 or bidding impulsively on v expensive ebay items and yet when it came to giving vinyl a chance you used a s/hand Project Debut with fitted cartridge that could have been bought for less than the cost of the Graham Slee phono pre-amp you bought. (Wasn't the deck your father's?)

Had you tried to get a demo of a better turntable and cartridge, and used records from a collection that was NOT (by your own admission) 3 fifths knackered, then you may have got a fairer comparison.

 

[JoelSim]

chebby:
Joel, you think nothing of spending out on £2000 speakers or cable upgrades worth £780 or bidding impulsively on v expensive ebay items and yet when it came to giving vinyl a chance you used a s/hand Project Debut with fitted cartridge that could have been bought for less than the cost of the Graham Slee phono pre-amp you bought. (Wasn't the deck your father's?)

Had you tried to get a demo of a better turntable and cartridge, and used records from a collection that was NOT (by your own admission) 3 fifths knackered, then you may have got a fairer comparison.ÿ

ÿ

You're missing the point Chebbster, I then thought long and hard about where my funds would be best spent as they are finite like most people. I realised that in order to better the sound I had I would have to spend a significant amount on a new TT (or 2nd hand), and perhaps a new arm/cartridge, and then some on loads of vinyl. To me that didn't add up, with no guarantee that it would sound better anyway.

I therefore decided to quench my hunger for hifi by buying some new cables and speakers which have all had the desired effect. I'm really pleased with all my recent purchases, and funnily enough the Nordost Shiva ranks very high amongst them. 2nd hand £72 and it has been money very well spent indeed, a bigger upgrade per pound than an extra grand on new speakers (which I might add are also excellent).

All in all I felt that buying a new TT, an LP12 perhaps, or a GyroDeck, or a Clearaudio or whatever would have been a sideways step and just another source, whereas upgrading what I had would be a forwards step.

As I've said on here before, my next step (insurance claim aside) will be a new amp (or 2), followed in a couple of years by a decent DAC or server system when I have moved house.

If you look at the original post, he has a romantic notion, which is what I had. All I'm saying is that he could just double the cost for no sonic improvement.ÿ

ÿ

ÿ

 

[chebby]

Accepting that Joel, why then do you advise people wanting to give vinyl a 'fair crack of the whip' that it is an inferior medium? I rarely (if ever) see you balance such advice by saying you compared a used, entry level, budget TT (and basic fitted cartridge playing iffy records), with an expensive CD player.

 

[JoelSim]

chebby:
Accepting that Joel, why then do you advise people wanting to give vinyl a 'fair crack of the whip' that it is an inferior medium?ÿ I rarely (if ever) see you balance such advice by saying you compared a used, entry level, budget TT (and basic fitted cartridge playing iffy records), with an expensive CD player.

ÿ

The records were/are in good nick, just not the kind of stuff I listen to as on the whole it's my dad's stuff. A couple of excellent Eltons etc which I have since bought on CD amongst them.

I've also not tried to hide the fact that it was a £900 (£400) CDP compared to a Debut. Shades of Naim 5i vs Solo Mini here.

ÿ

 

[chebby]

I am going to cease my half of this debate here.

There was a joke or cartoon I saw once that I should heed more often.

A woman, feeling lonely, calls out to her husband to come to bed. He shouts back saying, "I can't. Someone on the internet is wrong."

 

[JoelSim]

chebby:
I am going to cease my half of this debate here.

There was a joke or cartoon I saw once that I should heed more often.

A woman, feeling lonely, calls out to her husband to come to bed. He shouts back saying, "I can't. Someone on the internet is wrong."

And quite right too. I find it difficult to open my eyes whilst listening to Tracey Chapman, so I shall go back to my half trance-like state.

You go off to bed and then my missus won't have the same problem later

ÿ

 

[crusaderlord]

I also had a recent desire to try vinyl again with mixed results.
I bought a Rega Planar 2 from ebay which is pretty much near mint condition and times perfectly. Cost £90 as was collection only and fortunately for me local. I think i could near double that if i resold.

Anyway £ for £ against CD i found it an excellent bargain. But my CD player is high enough quality and is definately better on digging out detail. Also i couldnt quite get past the crackles again after all this time and so my investment in it stopped.

I have kept the table and may upgrade the cartridge but it is really for occasional use and wont replace the CD as the main source. I still the like the idea of vinyl but much is recording quality based.

 

[chebby]

Ooh a P2.

Snap...