Belt Drive or Direct Drive Turntable???

[n4d5]

Hi

Which is better, a Direct Drive or a Belt Drive turntable? What are the pros and cons? Also are the vintage turntable any good? If so please recommend any specific makes or models.

Thanks

 

[plastic penguin]

Phew, this is tricky. Personally I prefer belt driven TTs, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are better. I started a thread last week which may interest you in the turntable section.

http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/533204.aspx

 

[n4d5]

Interesting thread, so are the Vintage turntables as good as the new one's now?

 

[plastic penguin]

I would suggest that TTs, like any other component, has improved over the years. My overriding memory of the Garrard TTs is sonically very good, but compared to the current Pro-ject, pick-up a lot more "Woe and Flutter". If you are serious about TTs, then go and listen for yourself and see what you think.

Strange thing is, I've probably had turntables for longer than most people, yet I know so very little about them. This is due to that fact that I've always had Garrard until quite recently.

Brief rule of thumb: Always buy a turntable, regardless of age, from TT specialists such as Pro-ject, Rega, Thorens, Mitchell etc etc. I would avoid Pioneer TTs, JVC, Marantz. This is a plebes view, and not everyone will agree....

 

[audioaffair]

Direct drive decks used to sound rumbly but otherwise had good speed stability. There is still a lot more choice of belt drive units, and direct drive has become used pretty much exclusively on dj decks.

 

[SteveR750]

plastic penguin:

I would suggest that TTs, like any other component, has improved over the years. My overriding memory of the Garrard TTs is sonically very good, but compared to the current Pro-ject, pick-up a lot more "Woe and Flutter". If you are serious about TTs, then go and listen for yourself and see what you think.

Strange thing is, I've probably had turntables for longer than most people, yet I know so very little about them. This is due to that fact that I've always had Garrard until quite recently.

Brief rule of thumb: Always buy a turntable, regardless of age, from TT specialists such as Pro-ject, Rega, Thorens, Mitchell etc etc. I would avoid Pioneer TTs, JVC, Marantz. This is a plebes view, and not everyone will agree....

The PL12D has somehitng of a good reputation. As good as the CS505 that I had many years ago.

I owned a Garrard SP25 MkV or VI, not quite sure, one of the later models that was made of microphonic plastic, had no isolation and had an 'S' shaped tonearm just as everyone else was going to straight tonearms again....and it was rubbish!

 

[The_Lhc]

plastic penguin:pick-up a lot more "Woe and Flutter"...

... and thrice Woe!

 

[ziggy47]

Hi, I currently use a Technics direct drive T/T, which is bullet/idiot proof, however before this I owned the original Dais T/T (heavy platter etc,etc................. RIP Tom Fletcher.......). Which was great fun to tinker with and sounded exceptional, but needed alot of TLC to set up correctly, but those days I didn't have kids etc to distract me...lol......

So I guess it depends whether you like to play or just want convenience, but not at the cost of the sound quality........you pays your money and you makes the choice...........................

Happy listening.........................d'oh!

 

[The_Lhc]

ziggy47:d'oh!

Are you going to finish every post you make with that?

 

[ziggy47]

Possibly, why?

 

[The_Lhc]

ziggy47:Possibly, why?

Because it isn't funny...

 

[ziggy47]

Oh so sorry to upset you...d'oh!

 

[The_Lhc]

I didn't say it was upsetting, I said it isn't funny but your choice... {adds another name to the list...}

 

[ziggy47]

... {adds another name to the list...}

Yet another happy chappy.......lmao....

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Ahem.

There are three types of drive worth considering; Belt, Idler (or Rim) and Direct.

In theory, belt drive should have the lowest rumble of the three, with Direct and Idler having less wow and flutter.

Belt drive works pretty much as it says - a (normally) rubber belt/band that drives the platter or sub-platter from the motor spindle. This method has low rumble but a higher risk of wow (slow speed fluctuations) as the belt stretches and tensions. This is normally overcome to a greater or lesser extent by employing a heavy metal or glass platter.

Idler-wheel or Rim Drive has a hard rubber wheel that interfaces between the platter and the motor. These turntables, when executed well (think a Garrard 301/401 in a heavy plinth), have very good speed stability and excellent bass resolution. The main downside is that there are a lot of not-so-well executed models (think BSR and Garrard SP25s) that rumble badly due to cheaper machining/materials and thin plinths/light platters.

Direct drives have little wow, and should have low rumble, but can exhibit flutter (high-speed fluctuations) if not correctly controlled, as in some cheap Japanese decks. Others have crystal-controlled speed generators and produce excellent results (think Technics SL1210).

As to what is best... I don't think that will ever be answered. Some love the Belt driven Linns, Roksans, Michells whereas some won't have anything other than a Garrard 401. I've listened to a few, and for me, without spending a fortune, Direct drive is the way to go.

 

[manicm]

audioaffair:Direct drive decks used to sound rumbly but otherwise had good speed stability. There is still a lot more choice of belt drive units, and direct drive has become used pretty much exclusively on dj decks.

Not my experience of any rumble if my old Technics DD is to go by - it still sounds the business after 27 years! My dad uses it. Hasn't skipped a beat.

Denon have just released a new DD turntable as part of their new 100 anniversary range. Even Linn's Ivor Tiefenbrun has acknowledged that there have been some great DD turntables. But to re-engineer the Sondek LP12 would be too costly, too lengthy and render all its upgrades null and void.

 

[the record spot]

Check out some of the JVC and Denon direct drives superdecks of the 70s. Like this Denon DP100M for instance:

They've also introduced a new direct drive deck to celebrate their 100th anniversary (the DPA100) and another high end manufacturer recently produced another (Brinkmann I think). Belt drive is well known, but well engineered direct drives can be every bit as good. An upgraded SL1200 is ample testimony to that.

 

[Anonymous]

A couple of quick comments.

Wow and flutter can't be picked up, it's a product of the platter not running at a consistent speed. Direct drives, especially the quartz locked ones, tend to have less wow and flutter than belt drives. Belt drives have the inherent problem of the belt and pulley introducing slight speed variation, which they attempt to get around by using far heavier platters that DD so its the mass of the platter that keeps the speed steady, not the motor. Motors for belt drive also develop far less power/torque than those for DD. A case in point is Nottingham Analogue, whose platters have to be spun up by hand.

In fact performance figures of turntables coming from the classic era tend to be better than more modern ones. For example, the two budget Pro-ject turntables exhibit higher wow and flutter than the Systemdeks or the Walkers, and some of the Pioneer turntables from the 80s.

Finally, some of the most advanced turntables ever produced were the linear trackers from Technics, Sony, Pioneer, B&O and Revox. To my knowledge nothing since has come close in terms of intricacy of design.

P.S I saw the new Denon, which is a touch disappointing. It seems to be a tarted up turntable of Chinese manufacture possibly coming from the same factory as so many of the DJ decks do.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

I'm not sure I agree with you there - if by "picked up" you mean heard. Wow and flutter can certainly be picked up - wow as a change of pitch and flutter as a breaking up of notes, especially purer notes like piano.

As for a beautiful(IMO) modern idler drive, check out the Loricraft Garrard 501...

 

[n4d5]

Right thank you for your interesting comments and experiences. So is the Bass better on a Direct Drive than a Belt Drive?

 

[Anonymous]

fatboyslimfast:I'm not sure I agree with you there - if by "picked up" you mean heard. Wow and flutter can certainly be picked up - wow as a change of pitch and flutter as a breaking up of notes, especially purer notes like piano.

As for a beautiful(IMO) modern idler drive, check out the Loricraft Garrard 501...Yes, agreed, I was clarifying a previous comment. Wow and flutter, which is pitch instability, is indeed picked up by the cartridge, as is rumble etc, but its root cause is in the mechanics.

To answer the other question, all types of drive can do deep bass. It depends on the overall design of the turntable, plus arm and cartridge, rather than the drive system.

 

[n4d5]

I'm thinking of buying a Direct Drive TT, I'm going over to ebay and check some used vintage players out.

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:I didn't say it was upsetting, I said it isn't funny but your choice... {adds another name to the list...}
Might as well add my name to your list then if it's not on there already........................oh glorious god like one

 

[the record spot]

n4d5:
Right thank you for your interesting comments and experiences. So is the Bass better on a Direct Drive than a Belt Drive?

It's not so cut and dried, as others have highlighted. Really rather depends on the kind of cartridge you partner with your deck. If you like a deep, but agile and open sound, go for something like the Audio Techinica AT440MLa, which is around £125. Used this for the last few years and really rate it. If you think vinyl's all about woolly and warm, this cartridge will soon change your view on that. Goldring 1012GX is another fine choice. Expect to pay around the same kind of money. Maybe a little more, but a smoother ride, but not at the expense of atmosphere.