Beatles Mono vinyl box proves analogue superiority?

[Overdose]

You have got to be kidding me!

The idea that a cheap digital system can outperform an expensive analogue one is plainly daft IMHO. I have spent over £12,000 on digital systems and never been remotely satisfied with any of them. With a fraction of that money you can buy a great analogue system and your ears will thank you.

Go and check out Michael Fremer's website. He can explain the whys and hows better than I can.

Really not kidding.

Unfortunately, I think that you have swallowed too much foo in the past. £12,000 could have been far better spent it would seem.

There really isn't too much discussion to be had. The anecdotal evidence and invalid opinions are worthless. Digital has been proven to be the superior format for a whole range of reasons, it isn't up for debate.

The only thing up for debate is peoples' preference for one format over the other and individual preference is fine. I quite fancy a TT of my own at some point, mainly because there are a lot of releases as yet unavailable on CD. I don't expect it to sound as good as my digital system because of the mechanical flaws inherent in the format.

Did you really manage to spend £12K on a white elephant?

You have got to be kidding me!

 

[Frank Harvey]

@davedotco

I'd quote the part of your post I'm replying to, but this forum disallows highlighting a bunch of text on an iPad to remove it, so can't be arsed with holding my finger on the back button for five minutes!! But yes, digital does have less distortion, that I'm not contesting. What I will say though, is that if digital can record a vinyl record and reproduce is perfectly, then something somewhere in the digital chain for pre-recorded CDs is letting it down.

Maybe they're using generic cables...*biggrin*

(joke by the way, no cable discussion will be entered into)

 

[Overdose]

Lets flip this question around. Given the obvious and provable technical superiority of digital systems and given that everything else is equal: master tapes, remastering team, studios, equipment etc, how is a vinyl system going to come even close to a mediocre digital one?

People spend thousands on vinyl playback systems, trying to get the same level of quality that a cheap digital system can deliver. Even 'budget' digital equipment is able to produce a level of transparency that vinyl hasn't a hope of matching.

Budget CD player can easily be shown up in good quality hifi systems.

Sometimes maybe, but not in THIS case.

Perhaps this was an example of a 'poor' £12k digital system?

 

[davedotco]

@davedotco

I'd quote the part of your post I'm replying to, but this forum disallows highlighting a bunch of text to remove it, so can't be arsed with that! But yes, digital does have less distortion, that I'm not contesting. What I will say though, is that if digital can record a vinyl record and reproduce is perfectly, then something somewhere in the digital chain for pre-recorded CDs is letting it down.

Maybe they're using generic cables...*biggrin*

(joke by the way, no cable discussion will be entered into)

Exactly, so why are we not finding out what this is and sorting it out.

To be honest, this is primarily a pop (in the widest sense) music thing. Perfectly good performances are being destroyed by the record industry, why and how?

Most people have heard at least one CD that sounds fantastic, why are they not all to that standard?

These are the questions we should be asking, but sadly, quality concious consumers are in a tiny minority.

By the way, to the person who suggested that the Foo Fighters are concerned about the quality of there recordings.......

*ROFL* *ROFL*

 

[Frank Harvey]

@overdose

I remember picking a few holes in that set up/room. Complete joke.

@davedotco

Have you watched Sound City?

 

[VOE]

If it is solely mastering responsible for making vinyl sound better, then those who believe this must accept that there is an industry wide "conspiracy" at work to rid the world of digital in favour of superior analogue? Why else would they make vinyl sound better and CD worse deliberately if better mastering could make CD sound better than vinyl? In the same way as people complained how poor vinyl was back in 1987 just conveniently when most of the UK music outlets started heavily promoting CD's as the new thing. Suspicious minds.

 

[VOE]

There are plenty of websites and forums that argue the superiority of analogue better than I ever could: Steve Hoffman and Analogue Planet are two for a start. I think this forum is the rare example arguing the superiority of digital?

 

[davedotco]

@overdose

I remember picking a few holes in that set up/room. Complete joke.

@davedotco

Have you watched Sound City?

There were and still are some fine recording studios that buck the trend, despite spending a fair amount of time in US studios, this is not one that I ever visited.

Grohl on the other hand is an opportunist and self puplicist.

Oh, and he wasn't even the best drummer in Nirvana.....!

 

[Overdose]

@overdose

I remember picking a few holes in that set up/room. Complete joke.

@davedotco

Have you watched Sound City?

I suspect that any 'holes' were applicable to all the equipment. The results speak for themselves though and echo similar tests.

What did you think when you were there?

 

[cheeseboy]

There are plenty of websites and forums that argue the superiority of analogue better than I ever could: Steve Hoffman and Analogue Planet are two for a start. I think this forum is the rare example arguing the superiority of digital?

hmmm, analogue planet, that's not going to be a biased source is it now???

ok, let's try this again. Hopefully you can understand and comprehend what we are saying...

Digital is a *technically* superior medium. What people do with that is up to them.

Vinyl *has* to be mastered differently due to the constraints of it being *technically* inferior.

Now, if you prefer the sound of vinyl that's cool, but it doesn't make it carte blanche superior over other peoples views, just as digitial sources are not carte blance superior over vinyl beacuse they are technically more superior.

Now really, is that to hard to understand the difference between the technical aspects of a medium and the preferred aspects of a medium?

They aren't a combined thing, so if you prefer vinyl it's perfectly fine to say it's technically pretty rubbish, it doesn't alter your preference at all, but for some, they can't seperate the two - ie if one prefers one medium, therefore it must be superior in all aspects. It's not.

 

[matt49]

To be honest, this is primarily a pop (in the widest sense) music thing. Perfectly good performances are being destroyed by the record industry, why and how?

Most people have heard at least one CD that sounds fantastic, why are they not all to that standard?

Indeed. This point gets made again and again, and still it doesn't seem to register.

At the same time, the growth in sales of vinyl is also largely confined to pop music. There has been no sign of any significant resurgence in sales of classical music on vinyl. I can think of three reasons for this:

1. The excessive use of digital DR compression is really confined to pop music. In the case of classical music it is very rarely a problem.

2. Demographics: the resurgence of vinyl is being led by the younger generation, who buy much less classical music. The over-40 agre group, which consumes most classical music seems to be sticking to digital, despite having more disposable income than the younger generation and in theory being an easier market for a "luxury" product like vinyl.

3. Classical music lovers tend to think digital sounds better.

 

[Overdose]

The vinyl resurgence is a momentary trend. It's a fashion thing, led mainly by the yoof.

 

[The_Lhc]

The vinyl resurgence is a momentary trend. It's a fashion thing, led mainly by the yoof.

It's a momentary trend which has lasted at least ten years thus far and doesn't look like slowing down any time soon (quite the opposite in fact).

 

[VOE]

Really? You think most of the members of Steve Hoffman's forum are young? I'd put a wager on the age of the majority of members being somewhere between 45-60.

I only thing I'd agree with matt49 about is the music choice. Clearly the vinyl resurgence is driven by popular music choices, especially jazz and classic rock. Many audiophile and boutique labels exist now (mainly in the US sadly) to remaster and re-issue the classic rock past: Analogue Productions, Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab etc, Speakers Corner etc.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The vinyl resurgence is a momentary trend. It's a fashion thing, led mainly by the yoof.

Whilst there are a surprising number of "yoofs" buying vinyl in our store, the majority seem to be over 30. I completely disbelieve this is a fashion thing (other than those who collect the likes of picture discs), and whether it is momentary, time will tell. Vinyl sales have increased dramatically year on year since 2006, which I feel is significant (despite being tiny in the grand scheme of things).

 

[VOE]

Yes, Michael Fremer's site is called "Analogue Planet" and he makes no issue of the fact that he is a vinyl fan and has consistently despised digital since 1982. The question you should ask is WHY? Why not jump for digital if it is superior and sounds better? Someone who has grown up listening to classic rock, pop and jazz knows how the music should sound ie. like real live music. When it doesn't satisfy as in digital reproduction, then they have the right to stick with the medium that does the job best.

Fremer loves new things and reviews all kinds of equipment. You just know that he would have loved to like digital had it been better than analogue for conveying sheer musicality and depth of sound.

 

[Frank Harvey]

There were and still are some fine recording studios that buck the trend, despite spending a fair amount of time in US studios, this is not one that I ever visited.

Grohl on the other hand is an opportunist and self puplicist.

Oh, and he wasn't even the best drummer in Nirvana.....!

You jest. Whether Grohl is a world class drummer is neither here nor there, but it is the combination of the Cobain/Grohl/Novoselic that elevated Nirvana to the heights they reached - heights they would never have reached with Chad Channing. I wouldn't say Grohl is an opportunist and self publicist, just your typical outgoing (sometimes OTT) American who loves what he does, and while he's doing that, producing decent music, kick ass live gigs, and clowning around, I'll respect him for that. How many other groups do you know who have hit the big time will still play in the garages of fans and produce self deprecating videos? Bono? Yeah right. The Foo Fighters are just having fun, and many other bands should envy them for it, but they're too busy counting the money rolling in, and trying to convince those like us who earn basic wages to give to charities.

 

[Frank Harvey]

@overdose

I remember picking a few holes in that set up/room. Complete joke.

@davedotco

Have you watched Sound City?

I suspect that any 'holes' were applicable to all the equipment. The results speak for themselves though and echo similar tests.

What did you think when you were there?

I suspect the room acoustics (despite the poor attempts to correct) would make it difficult to tell the difference between anything. I've heard Wadia CD players - I flatly refuse to believe that some cheapo outdated DVD (however good it may be) can hold its own against such a player.

Maybe they preferred the more distorted, less accurate sound of the other system over something that was technically better. Sound familiar?

 

[The_Lhc]

Analogue Productions,

Note to retailers, this label must never, EVER be shortened to "Anal. Prod." as I once saw on a website last year...

 

[Frank Harvey]

3. Classical music lovers tend to think digital sounds better.

Just a bit of fun...

In the 80's, we were sold Compact Disc as superior, that will play perfectly every time, and be indestructible (anyone remember "prefect sound forever"?). We now know that to be a huge lie that conned the masses into ditching their inferior, crackly, poppy, scratchy vinyl to the charity shops and to be made into ash trays. Since then, the classical music lovers, who were middle aged at the time, are now pensioners with very little income from their feeble pension, so aren't in a position to get back into the format they once loved. Those rolling around in in money because they hid it in their mattress rather than have it all swallowed up by greedy financial establishments are now spending time with heir grandchildren, holidaying several times a year, and basically have enough money to be out and about doing what they want to do rather than sitting in a dark, damp home with nothing to do except listen to music and take their equally arthritis ridden dog for the occasional walk. It is the middle aged sector of the market who are growing up in excessively paid jobs that modern society has created who are doing the buying, and in general, they're not really into classical music. Again, those that are into classical music are probably off doing other things in their spare time, such is their disposable income.

 

[Overdose]

@overdose

I remember picking a few holes in that set up/room. Complete joke.

@davedotco

Have you watched Sound City?

I suspect that any 'holes' were applicable to all the equipment. The results speak for themselves though and echo similar tests.

What did you think when you were there?

I suspect the room acoustics (despite the poor attempts to correct) would make it difficult to tell the difference between anything. I've heard Wadia CD players - I flatly refuse to believe that some cheapo outdated DVD (however good it may be) can hold its own against such a player.

Maybe they preferred the more distorted, less accurate sound of the other system over something that was technically better. Sound familiar?

I see, so you weren't speaking from first hand experience, but were speculating?

The point being that the systems could not generally be separated at all and no matter how entrenched your beliefs, the results tell the real story.

Similar tests participated by individuals employed in the industry are unlikely to be held due to the damage that the documented results would likely do to already dwindling sales.

"We can reveal that afer extensive testing, expensive digital systems sounded no better than cheap ones", is not something ever likely to be uttered by anyone with a vested interest in the hobby, inlcuding those who have already invested heavily with their own systems., no matter how true it is.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Of course I wasn't - I wouldn't be listening to anything in a room like that!

Were there any referees present with no vested interest at all, to see if the test was done fairly? With the whole lot covered, how does any of those listening know what they were doing? This is my bug with blind tests - you don't know what you're listening to! I now that's the point, but it can also be a con, as you don't know what they're allowing you to listen to.

I'll take a challenge anyday between a Wadia and a cheap DVD player. I've heard Wadias, and they're one of the few high end CD players I'd actually buy. Whilst many digital systems may very well sound similar, some are in a different league - anything with a Chord DAC for starters. So I'll blind test a Chord Red Reference against an old Pioneer DV555 if you like? My system choice, my music choice.

 

[Overdose]

Of course I wasn't - I wouldn't be listening to anything in a room like that!

Were there any referees present with no vested interest at all, to see if the test was done fairly? With the whole lot covered, how does any of those listening know what they were doing? This is my bug with blind tests - you don't know what you're listening to! I now that's the point, but it can also be a con, as you don't know what they're allowing you to listen to.

I'll take a challenge anyday between a Wadia and a cheap DVD player. I've heard Wadias, and they're one of the few high end CD players I'd actually buy. Whilst many digital systems may very well sound similar, some are in a different league - anything with a Chord DAC for starters. So I'll blind test a Chord Red Reference against an old Pioneer DV555 if you like? My system choice, my music choice.

You are sounding rather desperate (and silly).

 

[cheeseboy]

Why not jump for digital if it is superior and sounds better?

again, please learn to seperate the two things. It's technically superior, but only the person listening can say if it sounds better *to them* or not.

Without this distinction you're not going to be able to get any further than the end of your nose (so as to speak, not in an insulting way I might add)

 

[VOE]

I'd also take the "Wadia challenge". I'm glad David brought this up - these CDP's are, for me, one of the classic examples of the proof that not all digital sounds the same. I think a few people honestly believe ANY transport, including cheap PC types, inputting into a DAC of their choice will automatically give the optimum and the ONLY sound achievable from digital sources. How wrong is this?