AV receiver for music & movies - So Confused !!!

[sound10]

Hi everyone, just need a little bit of advice from you all with regards to AV receivers & 2 channel stereo performance please.
I've had the chance over the past year to demo different amps/receiversspeakers as i'm looking hopefully to get either a dedicated stereo setup, or a home cinema setup sometime next year.
Here is what I've found so far :-
1.The best hifi sound that I liked was the Roksan Kandy Amp/CD Player connected to B&W CM8's. Really liked the sound and is within budget. However...Does not cater for home cinema.
2.Had a demo of various different AV receivers in 2 Channel stereo. Here are my findings so far...
Had a demo of the Arcam AVR400, and a few high end Pioneer recievers connected to a 500.00 cd player. Didn't like the 2 Channel stereo sound. Again demoed with B&W CM8's.
2. Tried the Onkyo NR809 in 2 channel and absolutely loved it.
I have been told that Denon and especially Marantz receivers are pretty good when it comes to 2 Channel stereo performance and I will be looking to demo the Denon 3312, Marantz SR6006, SR7005 in due course and see what I think. I'm aware that Denon/Marantz are owned by the same company, however most forum posts online all seem to say that the Marantz receivers sound better, when compared to their Denon equivalents.
I have also had a demo of the Marantz MCR603 with different speakers and absolutely loved the sound. If I could get that type of sound in 2 channel from an AV receiver, then that would be perfect !
I have read a few recent AV receiver reviews on whathifi and they say that the receivers sound good with music too, which is confusing me even more as many others say that an AV receiver can never sound as good as a dedicated 2 channel setup.
What I could do is get the Roksan Kandy steup with the CM8's and then just buy an All in One Home Cinema setup for approx 500.00. That could be one solution, however opinions on the web seem to say that all in one home cinema setups are not the best solution and are poorly specced.
The other ideal soultion is to get a Home Cinema setup which can be used with both music and movies.
I have a few questions with regards to the above though, firstly, if I purchase a receiver for approx 1000.00, which is really the max I would like to spend, how much should I spend on a dedicated cd player? Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated!
Secondly, is a decently specced Blu Ray Player connected to the analog inputs of an AV receiver going to sound as good as a dedicated CD Player ?
And lastly, if I go for the CM8's as the fronts, do I need to match the other speakers with the CM rears, centre & subwoofer, or can I mix & match. The CM subwoofer is very expensive lol.
Just remembered one final point, I could get an AVR receiver, and use the A/B speaker switching, then have the Cm8's for 2 channel and then 5.1 speaker package for home cinema.
Sorry for the long post, but lots of questions/advice needed.
Thanks

 

[John Duncan]

Hi sound10. What's more important to you; music or movies? Try and put a percentage on how much of each you listen to/watch.

My first thought is that if music is most important, get a good stereo amp, and then add a much lesser (second hand even) receiver with pre-outs to deal with occasional surround sound duties. You could easily do that for £1k...

 

[sound10]

Hi John, thanks for your reply. The ratio will be 80% music, 20%movies, as I absolutely love my music and that is much more important. Any recommendations on stereo amps/cd players that will have a similar sound to the Roksan ?

Thx

 

[Anonymous]

Yamaha. are a good compromise as they tend to sound good in stereo. They also have the delights of Dolby True HD, DTS Master Audio e.t.c

 

[duaplex]

This is a no brainer. AVR400 all the way. Its the best AV for Music and is no slouch at Movies either. Of course this is the case as you have mentioned an 80/20 ration there

If it were the other way around i would have said Pioneer LX83 - 85. I had the same dilemma as you and after putting them all to the demo sword including the AVR500, which by the way is awesome but bug ridden. The Arcam came up trumps over the pioneer on music and the pioneer Trumps the Arcam on Music.

AVR400 gets the vote

As for the CD player, that part is down to your budget.

You do not need to match the CM's I have the PV1 but could easily live with a used GS series sub but as for the center this can be trickier to match and its best you stick to the same brands. Rear speakers - again you can get away with mixing. Just be sure you speak to the retailer who can match different speaker brands for you. Its all about the tone, you dont want bright CM8 fronts with subtle rear speakers, they will be drowned out by your fronts.

 

[sound10]

Hi many thanks for all your replies. Will definitely demo a few Yamaha receivers to see if I like the 2 Channel Stereo performance. Re Arcam AVR400, I've had a couple of demo's and the sound in 2 channel stereo didn't blow me away. Will try again and see what I think.

Thanks

 

[ric71]

Hi sound10,
I use my system 80% of the time for music. I use an Arcam AVR 500. It is more impressive than the fantastic 400. It is basically a stripped down AVR 600 ie no networking etc,slightly less power.
You can pick one up for £1299 as discontinued. Most of the issues have been sorted now and you get a 5 year Arcam warranty. Seriously amazing with music. It retailed for £2500 6 months ago!!!!
I am 100% happy with mine give one a demo as sounds different from the AVR 400.

 

[sound10]

Hi ric71, thanks for your reply. Will definitely have a listen to the Arcam AVR500. The thing is, that I demoed the Arcam AVR400 in 2 channel stereo straight after listening to the Roksan Kandy and it was a night & day difference imho. The Arcam AVR400 was not even close in 2 Channel stereo when compared to the Roksan.
I demoed the AVR400 last week again and I felt that something was missing. I then listened to 2 channel stereo on the Onkyo NR809 and really liked it. Both receivers were demoed with a mid range Rotel CD Player.
Maybe it's just me. I was hoping that I would really like the AVR400, as many people say that it's a superb piece of kit. I'm not trying to disagree with anyone with regards to that. I'm sure the Arcam AVR400 is superb, looks very well built etc etc, but the 2 channel stereo performance was not exciting enough. It felt like the performance was not airy enough and the Arcam needed to open up a bit more.

 

[BenLaw]

Rather than buy a very expensive av receiver, the stereo performance of which will ultimately disappoint you, I would go with John's suggestion.

 

[Frank Harvey]

It felt like the performance was not airy enough and the Arcam needed to open up a bit more.

Based on this, I'd give the Pioneer SCLX83 or SCLX85 a try. I found when I changed from a Yamaha 3800 to an SCLX82, my system opened up to such a point it suddenly sounded a lot more like a hi-fi system. I now use an 83, which will shortly be an 85 - the 85 features improved amplification.

Which speakers did you hear the AVR400 with?

If you don't like the sound of the Pioneer or the Arcam, I really don't think you'll be happy with anything. Go for a lesser AV receiver and put the money towards a dedicated 2 channel hi-fi amp to get the best out of whichever speakers you go for, as per John's recommendation.

 

[nopiano]

1.The best hifi sound that I liked was the Roksan Kandy Amp/CD Player connected to B&W CM8's. Really liked the sound and is within budget. However...Does not cater for home cinema.

This, and your observation about 80% music makes me think this would be your best bet. No cinema system I've ever heard wil sound this natural Impressive? Yes. Exciting? Yes. Realistic? No.

2. Tried the Onkyo NR809 in 2 channel and absolutely loved it.

Then that is surely your best compromise for AV and hi-fi? (You'll note my personal bias, as I struggle with cinema being remotely as good as proper hifi!)

I have also had a demo of the Marantz MCR603 with different speakers and absolutely loved the sound.

It has lots of fans here, and I've always like Marantz gear. Still have my old PM52 and CD52SE series working fine after 18 years at a relatives house. The 603 would be a bargain buy for stereo (and I think it will do 2.1 too).

What I could do is get the Roksan Kandy steup with the CM8's and then just buy an All in One Home Cinema setup for approx 500.00.

Given your priorities that's what I'd do. We bought a Sony DAV-S500 all in one about 9 years ago and it still sounds pretty good to me. Not as good as my Denon/Kef system which cost about £900, but that is almost worthless after just 6 years (no HDMI sockets) so a very poor buy with hindsight. There are good bluray systems for £500.

Is a decently specced Blu Ray Player connected to the analog inputs of an AV receiver going to sound as good as a dedicated CD Player?

No! Though if you spend 3 or 4 times the budget you might be OK - e.g. £300 Marantz -v- £900 Oppo.

I won't suggest anything about your switching conundrum, as I simply don't know for sure. Intuitively it sounds like a compromise as switching boxes are usually rubbish-sounding. I would use that to determine if my dealer has any idea what he is doing, or just wants a quick sale!

I hope you get something you love. Perhaps just get the stereo first, and feed the telly through it? Spend the balance on films and music, plus the occasional live concert and play!

 

[nopiano]

Rather than buy a very expensive av receiver, the stereo performance of which will ultimately disappoint you, I would go with John's suggestion.

Hadn't seen this when I was writing my reply. I agree!

 

[John Duncan]

OK, there's a general consensus that stereo amp + modest receiver with pre-outs would be the way to go (space permitting). Which means you can still get your Kandy (I saw one for £650 somewhere, did I imagine that), and a cheap £300-ish receiver with preouts. I haven't got a buyer's guide to hand, any ideas about a suitably-equipped receiver recommendation? My first thought would be Yamaha but don't know how far down the range preouts go.

As for question re: Bluray vs CD player, haven't had time to do a proper comparison between the 751BD and the Uniti, but I had some music on the Cambridge over the weekend and it had no obvious flaws; full A/B to come...

 

[Anonymous]

The now discontinued excellent Yamaha RXV667 has Pre outs. There were a few titanium ones going on the Sevenoaks clearance list last time I checked.

 

[John Duncan]

And marked as 'last few' in black at Richers...

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi sound10, I use my system 80% of the time for music. I use an Arcam AVR 500. It is more impressive than the fantastic 400. It is basically a stripped down AVR 600 ie no networking etc,slightly less power. You can pick one up for £1299 as discontinued. Most of the issues have been sorted now and you get a 5 year Arcam warranty. Seriously amazing with music. It retailed for £2500 6 months ago!!!! I am 100% happy with mine give one a demo as sounds different from the AVR 400.

Definately try to get a demo of the AVR500 (biamped to L&R if poss) which is remarkably good for 2 channel and an absolute bargin at £1299.....it is also a big step up from the AVR400. As mentioned, there have been problems (which I think have mostly been solved), but if you fill in the Warrenty card, it is extended to 5 years.

If you don't go this route, then I agree that the preout from a cheap AV amp to a stereo amp, is the way to go.

If you can't get to hear one, then listen to an AVR600, as they sound quite similar.

 

[sound10]

Hi, many thanks again for all your replies. I'm learning quite a bit from all of your inputs.
David at Hifix, nice to meet you. I've had a look at your site and you do offer a wide variety of different kit, which is great.
I'm going to be a bit more clearer about what I'm looking to do :-
1. I'm looking to buy hopefully sometime next year, after I upgrade the tv. That could be possibly mid summer to now 2012. Right now I'm just trying to get a feel of what manufacturers sounds/equipment I like and which ones I don't. Perhaps by this time next year, the models will have changed etc etc who knows ?
2. This will be a one off person. It is highly unlikely that I will be purchasing this type of equipment again. Can't really say much more on that subject and do not wish to do so.
3. I do have a reasonable budget, however I am also aware of the law of diminishing returns, so I don't want to go too crazy etc etc.
David, I demoed the AVR400 & the Pioneer LX75 with B&W CM8's. I found that the Pioneer sounded too bright and the AVR400 too held back. Roksan Kandy demo with CM8's was absolutely fab, but there is a huge price tag of approx 2.5k if I want to get that type of hifi sound. Am I such an audiophile or purist to warrent paying that kind of money ? Not really tbh.
I currently have the Bowers & Wilkins MM1 speekers and a Denon DM35 in the bedroom, with the Denon speakers and am very happy with the sound of both.
I've also only demoed mainly Bowers & Wilkins speakers, but I know there are other brands eg Kef, Monitor Audio etc etc that deserve an audition. Perhaps I can save some money on speakers.
My questions to forum members especially David at Hifix are :-
Can I get a mid range hifi system with floorstanders that will sound good in 2 channel. Not as good as the Roksan, but near enough eg Arcam A18, CD17, or Mid Range Rotel/Marantz.
Secondly, in terms of receivers, I've not demoed any Yamaha/Denon/Marantz. Need to audition those and see what I think.
As mentioned, I really like the sound of the MCR603 & the Denon DM35 in my bedroom. Surely an AV receiver eg Marantz SR7005/ SR6006/Denon 3312 could give a similar 2 channel stereo performance ?
Finally, my local hifi dealer in Leeds are very very good. The only slight problem could be that they don't stock as wide a range as you do David, so I may have to travel, so I can audition all your different equipment and then make an informed choice. I don't mind travelling and purchasing from you David, but that is how important getting the right equipment at the right price is for me.
Also, I do understand about buying second hand equipment etc etc, but I prefer to buy new.
Thx

 

[bigboss]

I think the best way forward for you is to have an AV receiver with pre-outs to connect your choice of stereo amplifier. If you found the Pioneer to be too bright, definitely check out the offerings from Denon & Yamaha. They have a warmer edge to their sound. They're known for their musical abilities as well.

I was part of the Big Question feature in the magazine last year, when we compared the music performance between 3 AV receivers (Denon & Sony) & a Rotel RA-04SE. The Rotel was superior in performance, but the Denon was no slouch either.

You can then decide if you want to buy a dedicated stereo amplifier or not.

Try Sevenoaks in Leeds & Sheffield, & Moorgate acoustics in Sheffield. If you're going to Sevenoaks Sheffield, speak to Andrew. I bought mine from them & Andrew gave me a wealth of information, & spent hours with me, to help me choose my AV system.

 

[sound10]

Thanks for the local dealer info bigboss. I think that is what I will do. Demo a few different receivers, including Denon, Marantz & Yamaha, then make a decision.
Not had a chance as yet to demo the high end Denon, Marantz & Yamaha kit, but looking forward to hearing how they sound.
Cheers

 

[Anonymous]

The Marantz I have now is far more musical than the Denon 1911/ Pioneer LX73 or Yamaha 1067 I owned previously.

 

[bigboss]

Thanks for the local dealer info bigboss. I think that is what I will do. Demo a few different receivers, including Denon, Marantz & Yamaha, then make a decision. Not had a chance as yet to demo the high end Denon, Marantz & Yamaha kit, but looking forward to hearing how they sound. Cheers

In my experience, Moorgate acoustics love B&W speakers and gave me a lot of information about them. So they must know system synergy with your speakers well. But that was almost 3 years ago. I'm sure their advice will help.

 

[natstick]

I'm in a similar position myself.

Demo'd some RX1's, B&W 684 and 685's recently with the MCR603, PM6004 + RDac, and Rega Brio and Dac.

Not much to choose between the Rega kit and the MCR603, both sounded fanatstic and best matched to the 685's to my ears.

I've ordered the 685's and will be collecting them tomorrow. (Currently running a CA A1 mk3 se with output from headphone socket of laptop).

While I'm in store I will be demoing several AV amps against the MCR603 (my new reference) with the demo (worn in) 685's,

as I'm keen to see whether any av amp up to ( I think the store only stocks Denon, Pioneer and Onkyo) £1000 can reproduce stereo well enough. I am also keen to demo the Yamaha and Marantz equivalents elsewhere later.

If these amps dont sound at least as good as the micro (more like a mid than a micro to me), then I'm leaning towards buying the MCR603 and look for a lesser AV reciever for surround sound.

Whether the two seperate systems which will require speakers cables swapping over between films and music, is actually better proposition than buying a cheaper av receiver with pre-outs and connecting a half decent stereo amp is another question?

Any thoughts please? Is it possible to input a source (eg Spotify via Jamcast) into the av amp, bypass the circuitry and purely amplify with the stereo amp?

Anyway, I will report back tomorrow whether any of the AV's are a match for the MCR603 in stereo

 

[natstick]

I'm in a similar position myself.

Demo'd some RX1's, B&W 684 and 685's recently with the MCR603, PM6004 + RDac, and Rega Brio and Dac.

Not much to choose between the Rega kit and the MCR603, both sounded fanatstic and best matched to the 685's to my ears.

I've ordered the 685's and will be collecting them tomorrow. (Currently running a CA A1 mk3 se with output from headphone socket of laptop).

While I'm in store I will be demoing several AV amps against the MCR603 (my new reference) with the demo (worn in) 685's,

as I'm keen to see whether any av amp up to ( I think the store only stocks Denon, Pioneer and Onkyo) £1000 can reproduce stereo well enough. I am also keen to demo the Yamaha and Marantz equivalents elsewhere later.

If these amps dont sound at least as good as the micro (more like a mid than a micro to me), then I'm leaning towards buying the MCR603 and look for a lesser AV reciever for surround sound.

Whether the two seperate systems which will require speakers cables swapping over between films and music, is actually better proposition than buying a cheaper av receiver with pre-outs and connecting a half decent stereo amp is another question?

Any thoughts please? Is it possible to input a source (eg Spotify via Jamcast) into the av amp, bypass the circuitry and purely amplify with the stereo amp?

Anyway, I will report back tomorrow whether any of the AV's are a match for the MCR603 in stereo

 

[duaplex]

There is a video blog on how to do this on the site and it goes though how to swap cables. It also mentions that you will have some compromise, 5.1 would be compromised as a result of using a poweramp. You also need to think about settings and adjusting them everytime you switch.

 

[Anonymous]

Whatever you do, get the AV receiver first. Then make sure you can return the stereo amp. I personally think it's unnecessary these days (and I used to do the same thing with an old Yamaha DSP-E800).

I went 5.1 in the living room recently, and swapped out my Arcam A80 amp to a Yamaha RX V667. I needed the amp elsewhere and so am now running some Dali Ikon 6 speakers from the Yamaha. In all honesty there is no quality differential. Most AV amps have a pure direct mode, so you generally will get the benefit of a more powerful power amp too, which is never a bad thing.

Given that sound tracks are more demanding than stereo music, it also makes sense. And whats more, you get a LOT more for your money with an AV amp. The Yamaha was £300, the Arcam was originally £600.

My two pence.