Apple Express and optical digital output

[Leif]

I have an Apple Express which of course receives audio - MP3, ALAC etc - across Airplay, and can convert it to an analogue signal using its own not so good DAC. Or it can output the audio onto an optical digital output. Am I right to assume that the optical digital (TOSLINK) output can be connected to ANY hifi with an optical digital input? My understanding is that the Apple Express losslessly converts the audio from Airplay into an SPDIF protocol for transmission on the Toslink.

Unfortunately the information I can find online tends to be rather unspecific as to what is actually going on.

 

[iMark]

You are correct about the optical connection. We have used an Airport Express to stream to a DAC for years and had an optical cable as the connection between the two.

In Airplay using an Airport Express all audio is streamed as Apple Lossless (16bit/44.100). So if you rip your CDs to Apple Lossless and stream the through iTunes, you get perfect CD quality. All DACs are be able to convert the digital signal from the Airport Express to analogue. There is not a lot to worry about. It just works.

Maybe this is interesting for you: http://www.kirkville.com/how-apples-airplay-streams-audio/

We now have network receiver with Airplay so we no longer need the Airport Express and the DAC.

 

[MajorFubar]

The only issue I found was its propensity for dropping off the wifi network until I assigned it with a fixed IP. More likely a fallibility with my BT router than the AEX though.

 

[Rethep]

I have an Apple Express which of course receives audio - MP3, ALAC etc - across Airplay, and can convert it to an analogue signal using its own not so good DAC.

Who says so ? Did you ever do a comparison ?

See this link for a review:

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm

 

[iMark]

The latest Airport Express, A1392, has received good reviews for the DAC. The earlier models however aren't great. We have a A1262. The internal DAC is usable but not nothing to write home about. It does however transfer bit perfect ALAC.

 

[Leif]

This web site is almost unusable due to the bugs! I am unable to quote posts.

Anyway, I connected my iPhone to the AE over Airplay, then connected the AE analogue output to my Arcam Solo Mini. I then connected my iPhone to a Chord Mojo, and connected the CM analogue output to my Arcam Solo Mini. The difference is really quite obvious, the sound in the latter case has more detail and depth, it is more natural. The conclusion is that the DAC in the Chord Mojo is much better than the one in the AE. Given that the former costs 4 times as much, and is a dedicated DAC it's not surprising. If you Google, you'll find other people hear the same. The problem with Rockwell's test is that you have to be an electronics engineer to critique it, and I am not that, so I can only tell you what I hear, and it's obvious.

I know of Ken Rockwell from photography. In my view he has a history of talking complete balls. Some of the statements he makes about photography are incredibly asinine. He also has a tendency to make contentious remarks in order to generate web traffic, and increase his income i.e. click bait. Of course he says some sensible things, but some nonsense too.

 

[Leif]

The latest Airport Express, A1392, has received good reviews for the DAC. The earlier models however aren't great. We have a A1262. The internal DAC is usable but not nothing to write home about. It does however transfer bit perfect ALAC.

Mine is maybe two years old. It's fine if you are not fussy, but not audiophile for want of a better term.

 

[Leif]

You are correct about the optical connection. We have used an Airport Express to stream to a DAC for years and had an optical cable as the connection between the two.

In Airplay using an Airport Express all audio is streamed as Apple Lossless (16bit/44.100). So if you rip your CDs to Apple Lossless and stream the through iTunes, you get perfect CD quality. All DACs are be able to convert the digital signal from the Airport Express to analogue. There is not a lot to worry about. It just works.

Maybe this is interesting for you: http://www.kirkville.com/how-apples-airplay-streams-audio/

We now have network receiver with Airplay so we no longer need the Airport Express and the DAC.

Thanks. The Airplay seems pretty good. MIne is reliable. It was quite hard to get it to use my wifi network, rather than generate it's own, but once done, it does work.

 

[MajorFubar]

The conclusion is that the DAC in the Chord Mojo is much better than the one in the AE. Given that the former costs 4 times as much, and is a dedicated DAC it's not surprising.

Out of interest is yours the old AEX or the new one? Old one pulgs straight in to the wall, new one is like a white Apple TV.

 

[Leif]

I have the new one which has a power cable. I thought the sound was good until I tried the Chord Mojo!

 

[chebby]

Get a Chord Mojo then.

Heaven only knows why AEX (a network 'base station'/extender with AirPlay) is being compared with a Chord DAC. Regardless of ultimate sound quality and price, they don't even do the same job or have the same target customer base.

 

[Leif]

Get a Chord Mojo then.

Heaven only knows why AEX (a network 'base station'/extender with AirPlay) is being compared with a Chord DAC. Regardless of ultimate sound quality and price, they don't even do the same job or have the same target customer base.

Someone posted a link to a review which claims that the DAC in the AE is very high quality. It's okay, but it's not high quality, which is not surprising really since the Chord Mojo costs £400, and there is a reason for the price.

 

[chebby]

Get a Chord Mojo then.

Heaven only knows why AEX (a network 'base station'/extender with AirPlay) is being compared with a Chord DAC. Regardless of ultimate sound quality and price, they don't even do the same job or have the same target customer base.

Someone posted a link to a review which claims that the DAC in the AE is very high quality. It's okay, but it's not high quality, which is not surprising really since the Chord Mojo costs £400, and there is a reason for the price.

I thought a cat was being beaten up for not being a grapefruit.

I have the AEX (last version) and used it for a brief while into a Quad Vena (optical connection to the Quad's internal DAC) for AirPlay. It was fine but I retired it for an ATV 3 so I could use BBC iPlayer TV etc. as well as just audio.

The only Chord I was ever tempted by was their USB / BT Chordette Gem about 8 years ago when I used to have Naim separates.

 

[Leif]

Get a Chord Mojo then.

Heaven only knows why AEX (a network 'base station'/extender with AirPlay) is being compared with a Chord DAC. Regardless of ultimate sound quality and price, they don't even do the same job or have the same target customer base.

Someone posted a link to a review which claims that the DAC in the AE is very high quality. It's okay, but it's not high quality, which is not surprising really since the Chord Mojo costs £400, and there is a reason for the price.

I thought a cat was being beaten up for not being a grapefruit.

I have the AEX (last version) and used it for a brief while into a Quad Vena (optical connection to the Quad's internal DAC) for AirPlay. It was fine but I retired it for an ATV 3 so I could use BBC iPlayer TV etc. as well as just audio.

The only Chord I was ever tempted by was their USB / BT Chordette Gem about 8 years ago when I used to have Naim separates.

I should have made it clear that no cats were harmed in the writing of my posts. Apologies for the confusion. *crazy*

Seriously though, the fact that the AE contains a DAC means that many people are tempted to use it to stream from an iPhone and connect the analogue output to a hifi. And that then raises the issue of how good the output is, since some claim it is very high quality. I am fortunate in that I own a Chord Mojo, so I can do a quick comparison against the AE DAC.

The issue I have is that I want to purchase a hifi which can play ALAC files streamed from my iPhone. And since I have an AE, it makes sense to use if it possible. Unfortunately some streaming hifi systems such as the Arcam Solo do not support ALAC. But this is not an issue since the optical out of the AE can be connected to an optical in on the Arcam Solo (or other suitable amp). I am still left with the decision as to which hifi to get. An Arcam Solo would be nice, but I'm not sure what the amp/DAC quality is like, in other words what sort of price you'd have to pay to get an amp/DAC of similar audio quality.

 

[MajorFubar]

I have the new one which has a power cable. I thought the sound was good until I tried the Chord Mojo!

Ah fair enough. I haven't heard either of them to be honest, though apparently the new one sounds the best. I only use mine as a method for Airplaying from my phone to the DM10's via the AEX's optical output, I've never tried its internal DAC.

 

[daveh75]

The current AEX uses the objectively a decent DAC

 

[chris_bates1974]

I've got an AEX - newer one - and I've been really happy with it. I use it an awful lot. Whilst I've not done a serious comparison, it sounds just as good as my CD player, when I stream Apple Music, and use the analogue out as there is no digital input on my almost vintage (!!!) Cyrus 5.

Whether that's a thumbs up for the AEX, or a big thumbs down for the Cyrus CD6, I couldn't say....

 

[Rethep]

Well, the CD6 has 5-star reviews here! So a hands up for the AE then, it seems to me !?

 

[Rethep]

Ok. someone did not even try the AE-DAC, and another says that the more expensive (Chord) DAC should (?) be better, so no clear ABX comparison. Who can help me further out here ? Or do most people take it for granted that in such small cheap thing like the AE there cannot be a good DAC ?

As i tried to hear a difference between Cambridge DAC Magic, AE, and (old) Meridian 206B, 7 years ago, i could not hear any difference between them on a good set of equipment then. I have the (old) AE from that timeperiod (which plugs directly into the mains). In the end the DA-conversion all takes place in a chip in all DAC's, doesn't it ?

In what way is the new AE sounding better than the old one ? In what (exact) way is a stand-alone DAC sounding better ?

 

[Rethep]

So almost everybody 'assumes' the AE-DAC is not any good without even ever having tried the comparison ?! Or nobody wants to share their experience because it should be 'obvious' that when more electronics is used, in a stand alone (expensive) DAC, that's better for sure ?

 

[chris_bates1974]

As I mentioned before I am very happy with mine.

The reason that I bought it was because I was unhappy with the sound I was getting simply using the headphone out to RCA from my iPhone/iPad driectly in to the amp. The sounds just seemed "flat". (Apologies if that isn't a hifi term!). It was rather lifeless and a little dull when compared to records - at the time played using a Project Debut Phono with Orotofon 2M Red.

Pluggin in the AEX made an immediate and dramtic difference, and I coudln't be happier. I'd seriously wonder what more improvement could be had for £80?

The turntable has since been upgraded, and a very highly regarded phono stage added, and still the AEX seems to be holding its own.

There do seem to be a fair number of AEX haters round these parts, but mine has worked flawlessly from the off, is used by all four member of my household with a total of 7 devices, and sounds great.

 

[Rethep]

Maybe some people are afraid to post a reply because they cannot justify their expense on an expensive DAC, hearing only the difference when they look at the goldplated buttons/knobs/faders which might be the only difference at all ;-P

The Stereophile reviewer which i have mentioned, of course doesn' t tell what's sounding worse in an AE-DAC because he will have no job anymore when it proves to be not worse ;-P

Many reviews of expensive gear start with: "Of course we cannot expect a small, cheap package to sound good". So much preconception!

My theory: when there are just a few components, like in the AE, the signal path is short, which gives a pure, unmasked sound. Of course other DAC's will 'sound different' but not necessarily better. In the end the real conversion in any DAC happens in the DAC-chip!

 

[Leif]

I did more testing after getting better speakers, comparing ALAC files streamed via the Airport Express to my amp. I compared the analogue and digital outputs trying to match the levels. I came to the conclusion that within the limits of my poor test procedures, they sound the same. I also compared the Chord Mojo fed in to the amp and it sounded the same, within the limits of my test procedures.

I can't really draw firm conclusions, as my test procedures were so crude, but the AE DAC seems decent. I'm coming to the conclusion that DACs are commodity items, which is a claim made by many people.

I also tested the DAC in my iPhone 7, and I'm pretty sure it's noticeably inferior to the AE and amp ones, and the Chord Mojo, presumably because there is so little room in the iPhone.

 

[Rethep]

Finally! ;-)

 

[Leif]

Finally! ;-)

I think you underplay how difficult it is to perform these tests. Strictly speaking one needs a way to instantly switch between the two systems playing the same source. All I can say is they are close, and maybe identical. Sadly there is so much BS in hifi land.