Anti skating weight dropping off

[wclough]

I have a Project Carbon which I recently bought to replace a Dual. The sound is much improved but it has what I think are Heath Robinson features. The anti skating weight is held on with a length of fishing line which loops over a peg on the arm. When the arm is at rest the line is about 45 deg from the peg so it does not take much for the loop to fall off the peg and the weight drop on to the base. Has anyone thought of a way to prevent the loop falling off? Thanks

 

[The_Lhc]

Curious, I've got two earlier Pro-ject Debut models with the same mechanism, neither of them have ever had that problem, perhaps the wire arm the line goes through is too horizontal, can you show us a picture of it?

 

[wclough]

Thanks for reply. Things have moved on a bit. I spoke to Henley the distributors. They advised to pinch the loop to make it less circular and to bend the wire holder so that the line is at less of an angle. I did this and the wire then hit the lid so I bent the fulcrum of the wire downwards and it Broke. Aughhh! I spoke to henleys who are supplying me a new one. Hope I can fit it without too much trouble. Henleys gave me the impression that this is a known issue

 

[macdiddy]

after bending the wire holder, how did the wire hit the lid, sorry to ask but I have owned two versions of the Debut ( the 2 & 3 ) and although I found fitting the wire a pain both times (in the end used a pair of small tweezers), I have never had the problem of it hitting the lid (which for optimum listening should be removed anyway).

the only problem I did have (on my Debut 2) was like you, sometimes the wire would come out of its holder when moving the arm, what I did was to find the smallest cable tie I could and very carefully fit it just behind the slot where the wire was placed.

this seemed to cure it until I upgraded to the Debut 3 which hasn't (as yet) shown the problem with the wire.

*music2*

 

[macdiddy]

I thought you meant the slot on the arm, not the wire holder next to it.

teach me to reply without reading the post in full.

*fool*

 

[wclough]

In case it might help anyone, I asked Henleys if a small o ring or fibre washer could be pushged over the grooved peg to keep the fishing line in place. They said that the set up was too sensitive for this additional weight. I then suggested a bit of sewing thread tied through the fishing line (I know, more H Robinson) and they thought this would work. Anyway for now I don't have a Turntable until I fit the new wire holder.

 

[wclough]

The new wire arrived. You have to take the bottom case off to fit it. The nut does not have an hexagonal recess to hold it so it is a bit of a fiddle. Anyway I am back in business but how crude a set up. I am back where I started so I will just have to be more careful not to knock the fishing line off. As good as the Project Carbon is for sound, which let's face it is why we are hifi enthusiasts, it has put me off this unit a bit. If just a bit more thought had gone into the design. Henleys said that Project make to a price but I could have come up with better than this. The holder made of spring wire would help; the retaining screw could have been screwed into a tapped base allowing relacement from the top or even the all thing replaced by a simple plastic moulding pushed into what is currently the screw hole. Are Rega any better? Anyway I have sound back

 

[The_Lhc]

The new wire arrived. You have to take the bottom case off to fit it. The nut does not have an hexagonal recess to hold it so it is a bit of a fiddle. Anyway I am back in business but how crude a set up. I am back where I started so I will just have to be more careful not to knock the fishing line off. As good as the Project Carbon is for sound, which let's face it is why we are hifi enthusiasts, it has put me off this unit a bit. If just a bit more thought had gone into the design. Henleys said that Project make to a price but I could have come up with better than this. The holder made of spring wire would help; the retaining screw could have been screwed into a tapped base allowing relacement from the top or even the all thing replaced by a simple plastic moulding pushed into what is currently the screw hole. Are Rega any better? Anyway I have sound back

But how much would doing all that add to the cost? Henley are correct, this design started some years back (at least 15) when the entry level Debut, which this is based on, cost barely £100, so it was never going to be much more complicated than that. Anyway, as I said previously I've got two of these older decks and never had this problem.

 

[MajorFubar]

Perhaps there's a fault with your unit, or you're setting it up wrong. A picture speaks a thousand words, so that would be helpful if you can find time to post one up. Loads of TT's over the years have used the 'fishing line and a weight' system for anti-skate. It's crude but it works. The closer the arm is to the centre of the record, the higher it needs to lift the counterweight, which in turn counteracts the arm's increased pull to the centre. All of this is carefully calculated using maths that's less Heath Robinson than you give it credit for

 

[wclough]

I respect all you say but the wire could still be good enough to tweek without breaking and the wire and screw could more easily and cheaply be replaced my a single moulding. I was close to production all my life so it makes me critical; maybe too much so. The Carbon version was £239 so at the bottom end but not the price for cheap material to be used. Anyway it does sound great and as I said I will be more careful not to knock the fishing line off

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Sorry to hear about your woes. I've had my Debut Carbon for about 4 months and I've never had a problem with the anti-skate device, yeah sure it's a pain, but tweezers come in very handy for placing the thread and a quick pinch around the mounting just to make sure its seated correctly. However, I've just invested in a new Pioneer deck that has a dial instead of a fiddly fishing-line+weight to set the anti-skate; must say that this deck is rather surprising with a good cartridge installed.

 

[Henley]

As we've sold well over 100,000 decks, there really is not a problem that we haven't heard of. So, whenever we are called, it will be a recognised issue. But we will alays try to find a solution.

This method of anti skate is used widely and is a simple,trusted method. Slightly fiddly to set up but, once in position, should never need changing.

 

[Crispion]

I,m using a pioneer PL 514, that's 38 yrs old and it has a anti skate knob, it works great, I've just helped set a project turntable up and have to admit the flimsy nylon line is a bit delicate,it's the ribbed arm it has to loop onto. That's theproblem

 

[In2thepit]

I have had the exact same problem since new with my carbon. The anti skate weight simply falls off every single time i lift the tone arm. Even with the tone arm on the rest the fish line attached to the weight is barely hanging on to the little 'grooved spike' on the back of the tone arm due to the angle at which it approachs the spike. I now dont bother with the weight. Poor design..

 

[nopiano]

I have had the exact same problem since new with my carbon. The anti skate weight simply falls off every single time i lift the tone arm. Even with the tone arm on the rest the fish line attached to the weight is barely hanging on to the little 'grooved spike' on the back of the tone arm due to the angle at which it approachs the spike. I now dont bother with the weight. Poor design..

The UK Pro-Ject team appear here regularly, and will probably suggest you consult your dealer or revert to the importer for a service/tweak. I'm sure i can work properly - without the weight you'll have no antiskating and the right channel will mistrack at the end of side.

 

[brownz]

They can be very fiddly to attach, that's for sure. But as mentioned it's a very simple device which works extremely well and to an extent is employed throughout the range from the cheapest to the most expensive turntables. A couple of things to check. The top of the hoop needs to be roughly parallel and level with the top of the counterweight. It should be about 1.5-2.0cm in distance from the counterweight. When attached the anti-skate weight itself should hang about 1.0cm from the plinth. If you have this mix then all should be good. Some example pictures here of what you should be achieving.

 

[Al ears]

They can be very fiddly to attach, that's for sure. But as mentioned it's a very simple device which works extremely well and to an extent is employed throughout the range from the cheapest to the most expensive turntables. A couple of things to check. The top of the hoop needs to be roughly parallel and level with the top of the counterweight. It should be about 1.5-2.0cm in distance from the counterweight. When attached the anti-skate weight itself should hang about 1.0cm from the plinth. If you have this mix then all should be good. Some example pictures here of what you should be achieving.

And surely the angle of that wire support can be adjusted to stop the angle of the thread becoming too acute on the connecting bar.

 

[brownz]

Yup. It's all about the angle of dangle.....

 

[Al ears]

Yup. It's all about the angle of dangle.....

As it is with all things important. ;-)

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_10157526755220096]

I'm glad to find that I'm not the only person with the issue of the anti-skating weight falling off. It only happens about every 15 or 20 records but still often enough to be irritating. I'm also grateful for the photograph showing the three notches for the loop to go around. I hadn't noticed there was more than one position to choose from.

After reading everybody's posts, I adjusted the wire ever so slightly and haven't had the weight fall off since. Thanks for bringing this subject up and providing good photos. I'm loving my new turntable and can now turn my attention to the issue of figuring out where to put all the vinyl I've been picking up lately.

 

[MajorFubar]

I see the problem. Would be better if the slots were at a slant. Discrete blob of glue would fix it. Yes it's true what Henley say further up the thread that this method of anti skate is used on many decks throughout the industry from the cheapest to the most expensive, but that is the shittiest poorly thought out implementation of it I've ever seen. Sorry, Pro-ject / Henley.

 

[RadagastWHF]

Hi, I have read your forum comments about the anti skating weight falling off. I recently purchased an Essential II and have had the same problem from day 1. It is an obvious design flaw, looking at the pictures you have posted there is a lood of fishing line just about resting in a very small groove being pulled at about 45 degress when the arm is parked, it is a miracle it ever stays in. MIne falls out during record playing and overnight when the deck is not even touched. It is a real bodge of a design and my only option will be my own bodge to glue it in or similar. If it wasn't exactly what I wanted (minus this bug) I would have taken it back. It is interseting that some other people have not had the same problem, I wonder if there are significant manufacturing differences between the depth of the groves. I am both a mechanical and electronics engineer and would have been ashamed by this design, and would certainly have corrected it.

 

[RadagastWHF]

Hi, I have read your forum comments about the anti skating weight falling off. I recently purchased an Essential II and have had the same problem from day 1. It is an obvious design flaw, looking at the pictures you have posted there is a lood of fishing line just about resting in a very small groove being pulled at about 45 degress when the arm is parked, it is a miracle it ever stays in. MIne falls out during record playing and overnight when the deck is not even touched. It is a real bodge of a design and my only option will be my own bodge to glue it in or similar. If it wasn't exactly what I wanted (minus this bug) I would have taken it back. It is interseting that some other people have not had the same problem, I wonder if there are significant manufacturing differences between the depth of the groves. I am both a mechanical and electronics engineer and would have been ashamed by this design, and would certainly have corrected it.

 

[brownz]

I see the problem. Would be better if the slots were at a slant. Discrete blob of glue would fix it. Yes it's true what Henley say further up the thread that this method of anti skate is used on many decks throughout the industry from the cheapest to the most expensive, but that is the shittiest poorly thought out implementation of it I've ever seen. Sorry, Pro-ject / Henley.

No apologies needed. We feedback all comments to the factory, and actively welcome it. As mentioned before though back in the mists of time, it's a proven simple design that works on hundreds of thousands of turntables that Pro-Ject have sold around the world. Coming from an engineering background myself, I agree it may not be the prettiest, but it does it manage to keep prices down and the amount of things that can go wrong to a minimum. Yes, as we all know there are some better designs out there, these involve complex damping, added springs / mechanisms, baths of oil and fluid fans etc. Like speed control mechanisms these add price to the overall BOM cost vs a stepped pulley. It should work without hassle if setup correctly. If it's not I'd encourage anyone to take a look at the photo's back up this thread to ensure they have a setup that looks roughly like this. If you still have problems then something is amiss, please take it along to your local dealer for them to diagnose the issue.

 

[camcroft]

Hi. brownz I have just followed the steps in the pictures and adjusted the thread so that the hoop is in the same place as the photo and it sounds a lot better is that possible.