amplifiers with dac or whitout it

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

I don't know if a knowledgeable answer can come out of this discussion. For the reason that some integrated DAC are well designed, other not, and it's the same for some external DAC.

You have builders that offer integrated DAC, and that purpose external DAC's aside from that. But, honestly, I can't hear any difference at all if the converter is correctly made (#I'maworldclassjapanesebrandthatforgottoinsertabufferinmydac). But something is sure. The most costly thing to a modern hifi component is to workship the case, especially if it isn't made in China. So having numerous quality casings will only make an already hefty price more hefty. In the other way, a separate DAC can be replaced when the technologies evolved. Some fixed, internal DAC can't. But, again, you have brands like AVM that are offering a DAC slot. So the DAC part can elvoving with the technologies of its time.

So, for me, an impossible question to answer.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

I prefer an amplifier to host an internal DAC. In the same way that many amplifiers used to come with a phono stage, I think in this day and age, digital SPDIF / USB is more apropriate. You can of course upgrade to an external DAC if you wish, but if you can squeeze a half decent DAC into something the size of a USB memory stick, I don't see why you can't do the same inside a fairly roomy metal box.

+1

Provided it's a decent DAC circuit.

If / when I finally have the cash to replace my late lamented Cyrus kit, which included a DAC-X DAC, not a cheap item at all, I'm going for a pre-amp with an integrated DAC, like a DAC-XP Signature or similar price point DAC and pre-amp combo, not separate DAC and pre-amp boxes.

I, for one, see the logic of moving the digital signal from the source to the DAC to the pre-amp using as few interconnects of any type as possible. The "Morse code" coming down the wire (or fibre optic) from the digital source is less prone to cross-talk, interference, mains pick-up even, than an analogue signal. Having the DAC in the same box as, or even on the same circuit board as, the pre-amp circuitry seems perfectly logical to me.

Yes, new formats are going to bombard us for the next few years. But we've already seen so many come and go, that sooner, rather than later, we're going to standardize on a small handful of formats: basic CD "red book" for, erm, CDs, the DVD, Blu-Ray and UHD Blu-Ray standards, and a couple of others like DSD for high resolution stuff (and let's set aside all agruments about which high res format is best, and / or whether you can actually hear a difference). But you're probably going to be safe with CD, SACD (assuming anyone other than Yamaha ever actualy takes it seriously - which I doubt), FLAC, the dreaded MP3 and iTunes, and DSD or some other standardized high resolutiion audio-only format. So long as those bases are covered, I see no need to worry. And even if some whizz-bang washes whiter-than-white format comes out and completely takes over, new formats will probably one require a firmware update anyway, or at worst a return to the manufacturer for a replacement DAC module.

FWIW the DAC chip isn't the only part of the DAC circuit.

Think about it. A DAC converts a series of 1s and 0s into a voltage. A CD uses a 16-bit audio source, so that gives 2 to the power of 16 levels of voltage. From zero to five volts, for example, thats 5 / 65.536 = 0.0763 millivolt steps. That "steppy" output from the DAC chip them gets fed into some sort of smoothing / amplifying analogue circuitry, whose output then goes down the wires to your amplifier. So, assuming it's accurate, fast enough, etc., the DAC chip itself arguably has little effect on the sound. However, the downstream circuitry included in the DAC as a whole can, and does, influence the sound that comes out of your speaker.

A DAC chip, by the way, costs as little as ten Dollars retail these days, probably ten cents bought bulk if you don't manufacture your own in house like Sony or Toshiba or ... probably do.

So, let's assume the DAC chip itself has no real part to play in the cost of a separate DAC. What' you're really paying for is a separate case, a separate power supply, separate switches / knobs, separate displays / LED lights / whatever, separate input and output terminals, the shipping box, the shipping, the manual,..... None of which actually improves your sound.

 

[thewinelake.]

Another aspect to consider is what other facilities do you want? For example, if you want a network streamer (maybe even one with a built-in CD transport) then perhaps there's a "turf war" over where the DAC should sit.

It took me a while to realise that I'd like a network streamer, and I'm going to start with the DAC in that with an ancient analogue-only amp. Then I will consider if adding a standalone DAC would add anything.