Am i dreaming?

[lindsayt]

There are lots and lots of routes to getting a genuine high-end / world class sound.

A Big Mac and Sonus Fabers is one of them.

I'm confident there are other systems that would sound better and cost less.

 

[Jota180]

Speakers are the component that have the most varied sounds between makes and models. A good hi fidelity amp should just add gain to the input signal and nothing else or it falls short on fidelity. The biggest difference in source is from CD masterings and not CD players. Crap CD's are crap no matter what you play them in.

If you want to arse around with tone controls which negatively impact on fidelity then can I ask why are you in the market for HIFI (high fidelity)? Maybe better off buying a Sonos or some other cheerful system.

 

[npoguy]

Speakers are the component that have the most varied sounds between makes and models. A good hi fidelity amp should just add gain to the input signal and nothing else or it falls short on fidelity. The biggest difference in source is from CD masterings and not CD players. Crap CD's are crap no matter what you play them in.

If you want to arse around with tone controls which negatively impact on fidelity then can I ask why are you in the market for HIFI (high fidelity)? Maybe better off buying a Sonos or some other cheerful system.

[/quote

Please don't take the thread down this rabbit hole. Tone controls are perfectly acceptable to use if desired and some of the top names in HiFi include them. To each his own.

 

[CJSF]

I think the trick here is to work out what it was in the McIntosh/Sonus Faber system that was really making the difference.

I have spoken about this before, but i think that some equipment, often but not always amplifiers, are just so much better than the norm that they make systems sound really special.

There is, to my ears, a general mediocrity that overlays much modern equipment, and most systems. There is nothing wrong as such, just an overwheming feeling of, well, averageness. Hard to explain as a lot of people simple do not hear what I am describing, but from time to time we here from someone like the OP who have suddenly been exposed to a really good setup or sometimes, someone new to the hobby who finds that the equipment he is being told is great, thrilling etc, finds it nothing of the sort.

Clearly a lot of this equipment is pretty expensive, some frighteningly so but there are systems that can be put together at reasonable cost that do things very differently from, even highly rated, mainstream product. Finding it of course is the difficult bit, a good dealer will help immensly.

I think Dave, you are describing the 'kings new clothes' syndrome . . . O'how I agree, but no one listens. I'm old enough to remember the sort of sound you and the OP describe. Indeed, I was in the trade in those days. We swam against the tide, people did listen, sometimes, these days it rarely happens.

I listen to a sound reminiscent of those days, with my simple Icom ST40 MkIII valve amp, a 'tuned to my sound TT' and basic copper cable, happy memories . . . :cheers:

CJSF

 

[Jota180]

Speakers are the component that have the most varied sounds between makes and models. A good hi fidelity amp should just add gain to the input signal and nothing else or it falls short on fidelity. The biggest difference in source is from CD masterings and not CD players. Crap CD's are crap no matter what you play them in.

If you want to arse around with tone controls which negatively impact on fidelity then can I ask why are you in the market for HIFI (high fidelity)? Maybe better off buying a Sonos or some other cheerful system.

[/quote

Please don't take the thread down this rabbit hole. Tone controls are perfectly acceptable to use if desired and some of the top names in HiFi include them. To each his own.

Tone controls deviate from hi fidelity.

A wind up record player is also perfectly acceptable to use too but it's not hifi.

 

[lindsayt]

1970's American mainstream recordings. You can often tell if they were mastered with JBL speakers or Altec speakers. JBL masters tend to be on the lean side of neutral. Altec the opposite. Tone controls allow you to restore a tonal balance towards what the mastering engineer was hearing.

There are lot of 1950's and some 1960's records that do not adhere to the RIAA equalisation curve. They are often on the lean side of neutral, unless you provide appropriate equalisation - eg tone control.

Having said that. Once I've got my system set-up I don't bother with further tone adjustment with post 1970 recordings as I see it as part of the work of art of the recording when something is bass heavy or bass light. Just as I feel that studio production effects are part of the work of art too.

But I can understand why some people like to use tone controls. As always with hi-fi: do whatever makes you happiest.

 

[npoguy]

Unless you're lucky enough to have an acoutistically treated room, just about everything in our listening rooms works against having a true "high fidelity" experience! For some people, tone controls allow them to get a bit of it back.

 

[davedotco]

Unless you're lucky enough to have an acoutistically treated room, just about everything in our listening rooms works against having a true "high fidelity" experience! For some people, tone controls allow them to get a bit of it back.

I disagree quite strong with this.

Most rooms are OK, admittably you will come across the occasional disaster, but in my experience they are quite rare.

In my view the problem is that far too many modern speakers are deliberately built with bass that is over emphasised, boom and rattle is often the order of the day and the room gets the blame rather than the speakers.

This is also made considerably worse by the modern trend of spending more on speakers and less on amplifiers, bigger, 'better' speakers invariable have more bass and they are then paired with low cost amplifiers that have no chance of keeping the speakers under control.

 

[npoguy]

Dave,

Sorry, I probably overstated that a bit to make a point about the earlier statement regarding high fidelity. Whether it's a different amp, cables, speakers or tone controls we're all in search of that certain "something" and felt the reply was condescending.

 

[GCE]

Yes this site is soooo boring for all this spam trigger and cookies pop up: try to change ... 8)

They are better: http://www.avforums.com/forums/speakers.45/

 

[Hi-FiOutlaw]

Can we concentrate on the topic in hand?

 

[davedotco]

Dave,

Sorry, I probably overstated that a bit to make a point about the earlier statement regarding high fidelity. Whether it's a different amp, cables, speakers or tone controls we're all in search of that certain "something" and felt the reply was condescending.

To my mind the current obsession with bass, cheap floor standing speakers and inadequate amplification is ruining many peoples hi-fi and musical experience. I know there are other factors but the standard of the product and the retailers themselves has been driven down by the 'race to the bottom' in budget hi-fi.

There is good equipment out there, some of it not that expensive, but it is rarely the cheapest and often from 'unfashionalable' or unknown brands. This seemingly endless cycle of newer and cheaper equipment from the 'big' manufacturers is the problem in my view, so much of it is overhyped and fails to deliver on any meaningful level.

That 'certain something' is out there, you just have to be prepared to take the time and effort to find it and not settle for the cheapest item that 'does the job', as mostly, it doesn't.

 

[steve4232]

"A wind up record player is also perfectly acceptable to use too but it's not hifi"

Well, actually either an EMG Mark 10B/Oversize horn or an Expert "Senior" horn model from 1930 with 29" diameter papier-mache horn and 11 foot long exponentially tapering acoustic system (where the name "tone-arm" originated from) have considerably more "presence" today than modern electrically amplified sound systems costing £20,000 or more!

"Tone controls degrade sound"

This is an often repeated comment but I've never personally been able to actually hear the difference a "tone control" makes. The problem is no one has ever made amps both with and without to compare. We hear amps with tone controls and they probably never sound as good as amps without but is this not partly down to the amps "with" just not being as good quality to start with. I always wondered what a Naim Nait 2 might have sounded like with tone controls. I bet it would have sounded just as good?

"CD masterings are more important than CD players"

I would strongly refute this. Are you saying that all CD players sound the same or just as good as each other? I recently heard some very old CD masterings on 3 different CD players. The most expensive at £20,000 just blew the other two away. Forget a better mastering, the cheaper players couldn't get anywhere near the expensive machine even with an undeniably better version of the same CD.

 

[robbo400]

Sorry all, I didn't mean to start an argument about tone controls.

My system will need to feed 3 rooms and I have underfloor cables in conduits going to the other 2. My main listening room and the second room have fairly similar characteristics, but the 3rd room is a kitchen which has very very bright acoustics. Yes, I could get a separate sytem for there but i don't want to. I like the idea of being able to listen to everything I've got in any of the rooms from a non PC/netwrok based traditional 2 channel system. To optimise (to my ears) listening, I'll need tone controls to get the best sound in the kitchen. That's why I want it.

Also, on this point, aren't original recordings mixed with equalisers? If so aren't we already listening to a modified sound? To my logic, yes. And are McIntosh, Luxman, Accuphase and Marantz not reputable hi-fi brands? I'd say so, and they all have tone controls. If I bought a sports car and needed to bring a bike somewhere, I'd use a rack that day, not dismantle the bike to fit it in the boot just in case a motoring expert thought I should have bought a hatchback. I do my a**e-licking for a job during the day. When I listen to music, I'll do it the way I want as should everyone.

To answer davedotco: I think you may be right. I only listened to the Concepts on budget amps: the dealer's Marantz (latest award winner, can't remember model number) and my own Sansui AU-317 which in my biased opinion is probably only a small step up from the Marantz.. Interesting what you say about amps and speakers; I'll certainly bear it in mind.

Cno: yes, I will try and listen to the MF amps. I only have the budget level M1 DAC and CDT but I really do like the sound. So it could be that the higher-end models like yours are what I'm after. Received a PM telling me that the MF M6 amp may be what I'm after.

In conclusion, so much to look at which i am looking forward to!

 

[davedotco]

Robbo,

OK, that's pretty clear.

One thing though, how are you planning to control the sound in the other rooms? Also, what about selecting the room that you want to listen in?

Without going for a network solution like say, the Sonos, I am unclear how you are going to select and control the output in other rooms.

What did you have in mind?

 

[robbo400]

was intending to ideally get an amp with multiple speaker outlets or a spwaker witch box. Ideally the first, as any negative impact on sound would only affect the other 2 rooms which is less important to me.

My current Sansui 8080 has 3 speaker outputs so that would be my dream but I don't think that exists in any new amps

 

[davedotco]

was intending to ideally get an amp with multiple speaker outlets or a spwaker witch box. Ideally the first, as any negative impact on sound would only affect the other 2 rooms which is less important to me.

My current Sansui 8080 has 3 speaker outputs so that would be my dream but I don't think that exists in any new amps

This kind of setup gives you no control over relative levels and of course any use of tone controls will affect all speakers simultaneously.

Back in the day we used the fixed level line outputs (Tape, Zone etc) and ran a line level cable to a small integrated amp and a pair of speakers, this gives local control and even tone controls if the chosen amplifier has them.

These days powered speakers could be used but without eq or remote control, they are limited. All very clunky by modern multiroom standards though.

 

[robbo400]

you hit the nail on the head...because of bulkiness I want everything run off of one amp and am happy to live with a slight dip in sound quality for the other 2 rooms. It's not as though i live in a mansion so when I turn on the amp knowing i'll be listening in another room, i'll adjust the tone accordingly as I reckon after a while I'll know what is needed (for my ears).

Even though some have scoffed at my approach, I still think this will give a lot better sound quality in the 2 secondary rooms than having seperate midi or micro systems in there. I will put that money into buying better speakers which, imo, have the biggest impact on sound.

I understand that the set-up is not audiophile leading edge but I cannot think of anything more frustrating or detracting from enjoyment than the potential cut-outs in sound from internet sources due to the signal/wifi. I like the idea of traditional 2 channel and everyone I know who has a streamer/netwrok player is continually seeking ways to ensure a stable signal. I'd prefer the limitations of tone controls!

 

[davedotco]

Ok.

Find the biggest, best integrated you can find that has tone controls and A/B speaker switching.

Use A for you main speakers and B, via a simple switch box, for your two pairs of extension speakers. Very 1980's but it will work.

FWIW. The Sonos set up uses it's own network and, for internal use, is absolutely rock solid. In my experience network dropouts are almost always caused by poor setup.

 

[robbo400]

"Find the biggest, best integrated you can find that has tone controls and A/B speaker switching."

Guess that would either by McIntosh, Luxman or Accuphase?

Agree with your set-up suggestion...exactly what I had in mind.

Re Sonos, I am sure you are right, that direction is just not for me...

 

[davedotco]

"Find the biggest, best integrated you can find that has tone controls and A/B speaker switching."

Guess that would either by McIntosh, Luxman or Accuphase?

Agree with your set-up suggestion...exactly what I had in mind.

Re Sonos, I am sure you are right, that direction is just not for me...

Absolutely, you made your requirements pretty clear. I have no great knowledge of the amplifiers you mention so can not really help i'm afraid.

All have fantastic reputations though I doubt any are that easy to audition.

The Sonos point was not really aimed at you, just making the point that the system is solid and reliable should anyone think otherwise.

 

[matt49]

"Find the biggest, best integrated you can find that has tone controls and A/B speaker switching."

Guess that would either by McIntosh, Luxman or Accuphase?

All have fantastic reputations though I doubt any are that easy to audition.

I did quite a bit of research into these brands last year. As Dave says, they're hard to find. For Accuphase, The AudioWorks in Cheadle is pretty much the only UK dealer. For Luxman, contact Keith at Angel Sounds (near Watford): a very nice chap. For McIntosh it's Jordans in Glenrothes and Bournemouth.

For Accuphase, you may be better off looking at second-hand kit. Beware of people selling "grey" imported Accuphase amps on ebay!

Good luck!

Matt

 

[chebby]

Marantz PM-11S3 integrated ...

http://www.hifigear.co.uk/marantz-pm-11s3-stereo-amplifier.html

A and B speaker outputs, treble and bass controls.

Looks (at least on paper) like it should have enough grunt for most purposes with 100 Watts per channel RMS @ 8 Ohms and 200 wpc @ 4 Ohms (that doubling of power into 4 Ohms is normally considered a 'good thing').

It received a Hi-Fi News 'Editors Choice' gong last year so there must be a decent review foating around somewhere on the web if that matters. (And they measure stuff in their reviews, so I guess the power output claims aren't complete lies if the editor likes it.)

Here is a pic for Vladimir (he likes pics of innards) ...

http://www.i-fidelity.net/uploads/pics/Marantz_PM11S3_innen.jpg

It definitely doesn't look like anything designed for the UK (tone controls!) but it is on sale here nonetheless.

I agree with an earlier poster and - if funds allow (you did say 'Mercedes') - get the biggest offering from the Spendor Classic range you can afford. (Make sure it's the Classic range.)

I am suggesting this as an idea. (Apart from the big Spendors that I can personally recommend* even I can't afford the b###ers!)

*SP1/2R2s especially lovely.

 

[Native_bon]

From threads like this hope hifi manufacturers are taking note. Seems people realising most hifi out there are just ot up to standard. More reason I got my self a boston acoustics. I find most of the british speakers too bright and lacking in bass.

 

[davedotco]

From threads like this hope hifi manufacturers are taking note. Seems people realising most hifi out there are just ot up to standard. More reason I got my self a boston acoustics. I find most of the british speakers too bright and lacking in bass.

I find that a quite astonishing statement.

I find almost all modern speakers have too much bass, some massively so. However it is true that speakers designed for the US can and usually are balanced for greater bass weight.

This is a function of room size and construction.