Advice wanted on phono stages

6and8

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Jan 20, 2014
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I'm gradually upgrading my system, I think the next piece in the puzzle may be the phono stage.

The story so far. I've had my Pink Triangle LPT fully serviced. Works a treat. The RB300 has had the full upgrade, including interconnects, by Origin Live. The old Nagaoka TS11 has been replaced with an MP-200.

I'm using an external phono stage with my Arcam FMJ A-19 - a Moth 30 two box phono stage bought secondhand over 20 years ago. It works well but I could do with a little more grunt at the lower end. As the Moth is an older piece of kit how do you think its performance compares with modern phono stages?

As dealers tend to stock particular brands, not sure if I could audition and compare different brands at one store.

So I'm looking for pointers, brands / models to consider. Rega? Graham Slee? Pro-ject? Creek? Lemann? And considering my system, how much to spend to improve on what I already have.
 
6and8 said:
I'm gradually upgrading my system, I think the next piece in the puzzle may be the phono stage.

The story so far. I've had my Pink Triangle LPT fully serviced. Works a treat. The RB300 has had the full upgrade, including interconnects, by Origin Live. The old Nagaoka TS11 has been replaced with an MP-200.

I'm using an external phono stage with my Arcam FMJ A-19 - a Moth 30 two box phono stage bought secondhand over 20 years ago. It works well but I could do with a little more grunt at the lower end. As the Moth is an older piece of kit how do you think its performance compares with modern phono stages?

As dealers tend to stock particular brands, not sure if I could audition and compare different brands at one store.

So I'm looking for pointers, brands / models to consider. Rega? Graham Slee? Pro-ject? Creek? Lemann? And considering my system, how much to spend to improve on what I already have.

I am not sure why you aren't using the amps phono stage. Do you have issues with it. It's going to cost quite a bit to better it with an external one.
 

6and8

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I'm currently comparing the amp's phono stage with the Moth. I play an album and switch between the two. It's close, but I think the Moth has the edge. It gives me a bigger sound, more spacious, it brings the sound forward.

But when I play vinyl the sound doesn't get quite as low as the same amp with the Audiolab 8200CD. The bass could be fuller.

And I thought an external phono stage dedicated to the task of amplifying the signal from the cartridge would outperform a phono stage integrated into an amplifier. No?
 
6and8 said:
I'm currently comparing the amp's phono stage with the Moth. I play an album and switch between the two. It's close, but I think the Moth has the edge. It gives me a bigger sound, more spacious, it brings the sound forward.

But when I play vinyl the sound doesn't get quite as low as the same amp with the Audiolab 8200CD. The bass could be fuller.

And I thought an external phono stage dedicated to the task of amplifying the signal from the cartridge would outperform a phono stage integrated into an amplifier. No?

A good one will indeed do that but the best are just amplifying what the cartridge is outputting and will not add a heap of bass. The internal phono stage is a good one and I think you're going to have to spend a fair bit to better it. Think Graham Slee or Trichord Dino. Any chance you could try a different cartridge?
 
D

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I stopped looking for an external phono-stage a few months ago after going through the motions with one of the Pro-ject boxes only to discover that the internal stage on my Marantz was actually better.

Using Audacity I recorded a track to my pc using both the internal Marantz and the external Pro-ject box, (on various settings), and compared using headphones. The internal stage won by a country mile!

I forget which Pro-ject box it was but it was circa £225 and was returned within a week. So if you intend to stay with MM then stick with what you have, or be prepared to spend north of £400 to get any kind of improvement.
 
DougK said:
I stopped looking for an external phono-stage a few months ago after going through the motions with one of the Pro-ject boxes only to discover that the internal stage on my Marantz was actually better.

Using Audacity I recorded a track to my pc using both the internal Marantz and the external Pro-ject box, (on various settings), and compared using headphones. The internal stage won by a country mile!

I forget which Pro-ject box it was but it was circa £225 and was returned within a week. So if you intend to stay with MM then stick with what you have, or be prepared to spend north of £400 to get any kind of improvement.

Aye, on a new cartridge. ;-)
 

6and8

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Does an internal phono stage improve with use? I've been using the internal phono stage on my Arcam for a few days now and unless my ears are playing tricks on me, the sound's better than when I started.
 
6and8 said:
Does an internal phono stage improve with use? I've been using the internal phono stage on my Arcam for a few days now and unless my ears are playing tricks on me, the sound's better than when I started.

No. It's expectation bias. ;-)

My advice has always been to listen long. Some amps internal phono stages are not there as an afterthought. They can be very well constructed, especially if they are simply there for moving magnet cartridges. The difficulties arise with moving coil cartridges and often become non-existant when it comes to low output moving coils. This is where external stages become a necessity.
 

brownz

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DougK
At that price bracket sounds like it would have been the DS. Did you return it to a dealer and if so which one - just so I can keep an eye out for it coming back. The DS and DS+ are popular and should give a marked improvement over *most* inbuilt phono stages. I'm a huge fan of the Lehmann kit as mentioned elsewhere and when I upgraded my TT from an RPM1 to a 2-Xperience SB I also moved from a Phono Box S to a Black Cube SE - it really was one of those wow moments where (cliche alert disabled) you start hearing things you hadn't noticed before on your records.
 
D

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brownz said:
DougKAt that price bracket sounds like it would have been the DS. Did you return it to a dealer and if so which one - just so I can keep an eye out for it coming back. The DS and DS+ are popular and should give a marked improvement over *most* inbuilt phono stages. I'm a huge fan of the Lehmann kit as mentioned elsewhere and when I upgraded my TT from an RPM1 to a 2-Xperience SB I also moved from a Phono Box S to a Black Cube SE - it really was one of those wow moments where (cliche alert disabled) you start hearing things you hadn't noticed before on your records.

Thank you, you are correct it was indeed the DS. There was nothing actually wrong with it so the dealer just returned it to stock and administered a handling charge. I'm sure these do give an improvement over "most" internal phono stages but that certainly wasn't the case with the Marantz vs the DS, the Marantz trumped it. Obviously Marantz do not skimp on their phono stages *biggrin* As for further forays I've decided to stick with MM carts for now as the MP300 gives me all I need.
 

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