Advice on upgrade from stereo to home cinema

[admin_exported]

Hello,

I have an old Harman Kardon stereo amp (which has worked flawlessly for more than 15 years) driving a couple of B&W 602's and an asw500 sub. I'd like to upgrade the system to home cinema. Can you give me some advice on this, and what components I should look at?

Obviously, I need:

- a receiver. My budget is up to about GBP 1200. Criteria are to drive the speakers properly, have all the acronyms possible for future-proofing, and be really good at music...

- a centre speaker. I understand I should match the 602's, so should get a B&W.

- a pair of rear speakers. I have no real idea here except to say that they will be close to the listeners, so should work well at low volumes... A couple of small B&W's?

Is this ok so far? What would you recommend?

Thank you in advance!!

Karl

 

[John Duncan]

'Receiver' and 'really good with music' in the same sentence suggests this to me, for that bargain price. I can't judge whether it has all the right acronyms.

Then you have 800 quid bunts - you could upgrade your entire speaker set in a one-er.........

 

[Tonestar1]

I just got the AVR350 for £599. Doesn't have all the latest letters though. I decided that stereo is definately my priority and I couldn't get anything seven channelled near that musical performance for that price. In fact with it bi-amping my 684's I think I'd think I'd struggle to find a better sounnding stereo amp for that kind of money. I will, however, get a blu ray player with all the acronyms and analogue outs so I can hear all the new sound formats in there full glory. Amplified by Arcam!!! Can't wait

 

[John Duncan]

Though if you absolutely must spend 1200 quid, the must musical combo you can get is probably this and this stuck together.

 

[Anonymous]

... so there's not an amp which will do cinema and good music?

Keep what I have for music and buy a cinema-in-a-box?

Seems a waste to not be putting both music and cinema through the same system...

 

[John Duncan]

Oh there are, and Arcam and Primare would be top of my list if I had to have it all in one box. The Arcam I link to above is an amazing deal ("the most musical performer in its class", says the review, at its original 1200 quid).

My suggestion of the two Cambridge boxes was just an example of how to get the very best out of music whilst retaining surround capability, which is something I thought you might wish to consider - and it would be the same system, as my point was to link them together via the preouts of the receiver into an aux input on the stereo amp, so that the stereo amp drives either stereo music or the front two channels of the surround system - you wouldn't have to keep swapping them or anything. Does that make sense?

Edit - You could even keep your existing HK amp to drive music and the front channels of surround, and link it to a more modest receiver with preouts (such as the 400 quid Yamaha 763).

 

[Anonymous]

Linking sounds like a cool idea!

Wouldn't that compromise the automatic setups of surround amps?

 

[John Duncan]

No - you set the stereo amp to a particular volume - 12 o'clock, say - run the auto setup on the receiver, then always have the stereo amp set at that volume when watching films.

Some more recent amps (not many, but one such is the Cambridge I mentioned) have an AV In option, which doesn't vary volume so you don't have to worry about it.

 

[Anonymous]

I have to agree with everyone here, the Arcam AVR350 is one of the most musical receivers I have ever heard. For the money it is going for these days.... it's a steal. However, no, it doesn't have all the right acronyms for future proofing. Hardly any in fact. And that's the beauty of it in some ways... Arcams philosophy of 'make it sound good then worry about the gimmicks' appeals to me. It's a relatively simple receiver that does what it's supposed to do very well - sound great in stereo and multi-channel. So unless you need video processing and scaling, processing of the new Blu-Ray based audio formats (DD True HD etc) and a million and one daft processing modes (sci-fi, cathedral etc - I mean who uses these?) it'd be the one to go for. If you plan on going for Blu-Ray, just get a Blu-Ray player with analogue outs like Tonestar1 mentioned. The 600 quid you've got left over should cover that . Or you could buy better speakers.

Of course you could wait for Arcams new receiver (the gorgeous ARV600, which does have all the acronyms) early next year, but you'd probably have to stretch your budget by another grand.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks John!

That's another option that I haven't thought about!!

So, you are saying that it isn't possible to find good cinema and good sound in the one unit for that sort of budget?

 

[Tonestar1]

No question of it not sounding good. However something like the Arcam
(not meaning to sound like a fan boy) will give a far better performance
for music and multichannel without all the bells and whistles, as discussed by
Runcible, that will no doubt be outdated in a few years. Thats why I've decided to let the amp do the amplifying (as designed) and will let the other (usually cheaper) boxes convert the ones and zeros. Then when the latest format of either disc/sound/picture comes along I can just buy a new player with digital decoding do the work.

The industry relies on people buying at premium prices on the premise that it will last you for years because it has ever conceivable format built in.

IMHO "futureproof" doesn't really exist. It means ok till the next revelation comes along (usually around two to five years). I work in the IT industry so I hear the term more than most!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi Tonestar1,

I hear you - I'm in it(!) too. It seems like a new av receiver comes out every 6 months - and it provides new feaures that make all the previous ones redundant. It's not possible to plan to buy a unit that will last 10 years under those circumstances.

I certainly can't justify spending that sort of money more often!

Regards,

Karl

 

[Gerrardasnails]

JohnDuncan:No - you set the stereo amp to a particular volume - 12 o'clock, say - run the auto setup on the receiver, then always have the stereo amp set at that volume when watching films.

Some more recent amps (not many, but one such is the Cambridge I mentioned) have an AV In option, which doesn't vary volume so you don't have to worry about it.

Sorry to nitpick JD but it isn't an AV in option on the 840. You can use any input you like and you are able to fix the volume level. So mine is say "Tape" input, I rename it to Sony AV and fix the level to 12 o'clock. This means when you want to get surround sound, you select the Sony AV input and it cannot be turned up or down (especially by the kids - only one more volume dial to worry about!) and is at 12 o'clock which is what it was when you calibrated the rest of the system through the AV receiver.

 

[kinda]

I can't agree more about unnecessary bells and whistles of newer amps, especially things like video scaling.

However, I don't think it's necessarily great to always have to connect possibly multiple pieces of kit by 8 (what need to be decent as it's analogue signals) cables to the receiver, (not sure if these amps even have more than one set of analogue inputs but guess they might).

Also, you are tied down to the quality of D/A conversion in any sound source you buy; if you don't get something that matches the reciever, then you are losing quality, (and you'd have to get good sources to match the Arcam).

It also leaves out some other elements of modern AV receivers like THX processing, (though I'm not necessarily totally convinced on THX), and improved setup routines, that better take into account the environment.

The HD sound on BlueRay comes as plain PCM, (the orignal theatre sound mix), and/or is on the disk as "zipped up" PCM, (true HD and DTS MA). Most new BlueRay players can "unzip" the PCM, and send it over HDMI, (and these are often cheaper than those that also have 8 analogue outputs for the sound).

The latest receivers support the BlueRay player sending the "zipped" sound over HDMI and the reciever unzips it. Amps that do this are said to support bitstreaming of the formats. This is no better than the BlueRay player unzipping the sound and sending it as PCM, and in some ways is less flexible, (player can mix in commentaries and stuff, but receiver can't).

I think an alternative to the Arcam or CA route is to look at Marantz AV amps, (I'm not really sure of any others makes that could be recommended for music). They have a pedigree in terms of music and sound quality, but tend to keep up with the new technologies a bit more.

They have receivers that take PCM over HDMI, (so you wouldn't need the 8 analogue connections, just one HDMI), and some of them are now "old" models, and so are significantly discounted.

It would mean you'd get very good sound quality and musicality, reduce cables, and since the signal is coming digitally, you are less dependent on quality of player, as the amp will do all D/A conversion. You will also get a few more bells and whistles that are worth having.

It's another possible option.

 

[Gerrardasnails]

kinda:
I can't agree more about unnecessary bells and whistles of newer amps, especially things like video scaling.

However, I don't think it's necessarily great to always have to connect possibly multiple pieces of kit by 8 (what need to be decent as it's analogue signals) cables to the receiver, (not sure if these amps even have more than one set of analogue inputs but guess they might).

Also, you are tied down to the quality of D/A conversion in any sound source you buy; if you don't get something that matches the reciever, then you are losing quality, (and you'd have to get good sources to match the Arcam).

It also leaves out some other elements of modern AV receivers like THX processing, (though I'm not necessarily totally convinced on THX), and improved setup routines, that better take into account the environment.

The HD sound on BlueRay comes as plain PCM, (the orignal theatre sound mix), and/or is on the disk as "zipped up" PCM, (true HD and DTS MA). Most new BlueRay players can "unzip" the PCM, and send it over HDMI, (and these are often cheaper than those that also have 8 analogue outputs for the sound).

The latest receivers support the BlueRay player sending the "zipped" sound over HDMI and the reciever unzips it. Amps that do this are said to support bitstreaming of the formats. This is no better than the BlueRay player unzipping the sound and sending it as PCM, and in some ways is less flexible, (player can mix in commentaries and stuff, but receiver can't).

I think an alternative to the Arcam or CA route is to look at Marantz AV amps, (I'm not really sure of any others makes that could be recommended for music). They have a pedigree in terms of music and sound quality, but tend to keep up with the new technologies a bit more.

They have receivers that take PCM over HDMI, (so you wouldn't need the 8 analogue connections, just one HDMI), and some of them are now "old" models, and so are significantly discounted.

It would mean you'd get very good sound quality and musicality, reduce cables, and since the signal is coming digitally, you are less dependent on quality of player, as the amp will do all D/A conversion. You will also get a few more bells and whistles that are worth having.

It's another possible option.

The new Sony receiver (2400es) was very well thought of in the mag for music. This is a £400-£500 player so I would imagine the Arcam would be better still. My receiver is the next Sony up but I've not really had to listen to it in stereo. It sounds great with movies though.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that kinda,

So the thing is that a lot of the newer capabilities are extra ways of doing things, but they might not lead to better sound in the end - or better sound for me in a small lounge room, anyway.

So the message if that if I tilt the bias towards music, I'll get good cinema anyway.

The manufacturers to look to are then Arcam, CA, and Marantz.

Do NAD fit in there too?

Thanks!

 

[John Duncan]

Yes, but they went a bit AWOL on the AV front for a while - only just coming back, maybe just my perception.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok,

Thanks for that everybody... More grist for the mill!

Karl