A second high-end journey

[avexplorer]

Hello connoisseurs and enthusiasts,

Today is my first day as a member here and being my first post, it can perhaps get a bit long . Having procrastinated my signing-up for quite sometime, a much familiar restlessness got the better of me this morning and here I am putting down my first post. I say familiar, 'coz this sort of a feeling is a certain déjà vu for me. About 6 years ago, I was in the pursuit of that elusive synergy that many of us have been been 'tormented' with when foraying into the realm of premium end AV. At that time, after 4 tumultuous months of fear, uncertainty and doubt (a.k.a FUD), the deed was done and I had my first 'high-end' home theater rig. It was an all ARCAM (DV-137 & AVR-350) and an all ProAc (Studio 140, 110 and Center) combination backed by a REL T-5 sub-woofer and a Panasonic plasma. And did I say that I have enjoyed every day of my life with her ever since?

I am about to embark on my second AV adventure, but this time it would in the realm of pure 2-channel hi-fi. However, some things have changed over the past 6 years. My need back then was for a 'musical' multi-channel system that could do justice to my burgeoning collection of concert / music DVDs. With ever diminishing time to spare from my profession of software development, I seldom have time to watch music videos (or any videos) anymore. With the explosion of digital media world over, my primary source of music now is a 2 TB NAS that is stuffed with FLACs of various configurations and that adds to a 'slappa' full of XRCDs.

As for my musical preference, I am NOT into classical, never have been. Its predominantly rock, blues and jazz for me. In terms of my preference to sonic signature, I have realigned from being an aficionado of very warm sound to that of being appreciative of detail, accuracy and PRaT (Pace Rythm and Timing), but on a largely warm-ish foundation leaning towards neutrality. An important aspect of the sound is in the bass front. I need the snare drum to be attacking and a pedal drum to be deep (not wallow), tight and fast. Finally, on to the budget. I have got to restrict my buy to under 5000 GBP or 7500 USD.

Contrary to the recommended approach of travelling from source to the monitor, I am always more comfortable in the reverse order. This is because, I feel that the biggest contributor to the sonic signature in that chain is the monitor. To that end, my first shortlist is the ProAc Response D2 (or D1?) and the Kef LS-5. I am leaning towards the former as I am getting a sweet deal on it on account of being a ProAc loyalist from my previous buy. Did I mention that I am looking for a book shelf or a stand mount only for a room which is 14x16 feet.

Now having done an elaborate context setting, my first question would be:

• If I am going to be way off with the ProAc D2's with respect to my desired sonic signature? Which among the 2 (D1 or D2) would you recommend?

I am hoping I wouldn't be. So then the followup question is of the following brands available here in my city what integrated amp do you think would make the best pair?

• Creek Destiny 2

• Cambridge Audio Audio 851

• Arcam A38

• Cyrus 8a (or perhaps X Power if I were to use a Streamer/DAC/Pre from them)

• Naim Super Nait

• Roksan M2

• Musical Fidelity M3i

• Primare I32

Next, coming to the front-end, as I had mentioned before I have tons of FLACs and 150 odd working XRCDs. So the arrangement that works for me is a DAC (or streamer) and transport combination or separates. Hence the question next obviously is:

• What or what combination of source front ends ?

Finally, let me mention here that in this country there is limited access to audition demo let alone home demo. There are a few products on demo for some brands but very very sparse and limited. So as before, it would largely again be a blind buy on my part with the only source of neutral help from you folks.

cheers

 

[CnoEvil]

Welcome aboard......and I hope you will get some helpful advice.

I like your choice for AV.....I used to own an AVR350, do own a DV79 (Arcam) and can see how well it would work with the Proacs; and Rel make great subs.

Here are a few thoughts, suggestions and possibly stupid questions.

- Is this a separate system in a separate room?

- Would you consider using your Proac 140s in your 2 channel system (replace with small Proacs for AV)?......your room is big enough.

- I agree that a digital source can take up less of the budget, especially if a streamer.....but imo it still needs to be a minimum quality of something like a Linn Sneaky, or its equivalent from Naim or Cyrus.

- The matching of amp/speakers is crucial

- If looking at Proac, I would be suggesting Creek, Musical Fidelity, Arcam and Roksan - from your list......Others to consider, if available, would be Pathos, Sugden and Electrocompaniet.

- Alternative speakers might be the Kef R Series and Sonus Faber Venere range......again if available.

 

[avexplorer]

Welcome aboard......and I hope you will get some helpful advice.

I like your choice for AV.....I used to own an AVR350, do own a DV79 (Arcam) and can see how well it would work with the Proacs; and Rel make great subs.

Thanks dude!!! They do make a sublime pairing indeed.

- Is this a separate system in a separate room?

- Would you consider using your Proac 140s in your 2 channel system (replace with small Proacs for AV)?......your room is big enough.

The short answer is Yes!!! The 2-channel is for my home-office. The HT setup was for the living room.

A lot has changed in my life since the time my HT rig was setup. I am now a father of 2 and things which I could call 'mine' and 'my own' cannot be called that way anymore. Where my wife didn't dare to tread, has been over taken without warning by the kids. They have not only laid siege to what used to be my prized possession but have virtually banished me from that territory. What used to oblige the likes of Pink Floyd, Led Zep, Patricia Barber, JJ Cale, Clapton, BB King has reconciled to playing Ice Age, Cinderella, Lion King, Madagascar and everything else from Mr. Walt Disney's domain over and over again. After having been quarantined to my head phones and the home-office for some months, I finally have resigned to the fact that I need to buy myself yet another rig.

- I agree that a digital source can take up less of the budget, especially if a streamer.....but imo it still needs to be a minimum quality of something like a Linn Sneaky, or its equivalent from Naim or Cyrus.

- The matching of amp/speakers is crucial

Absolutely!!! In fact I have precisely those in my radar at the moment. Just that, since its difficult to work with 2 many variables, I am trying to zero in on the amp first as like you I too believe that the amp and speaker pairing has a larger impact and needs to be locked down first.

- Alternative speakers might be the Kef R Series and Sonus Faber Venere range......again if available.

The Kef distributor in India, charges atrociously for anything that is even remotely premium in the line-up. Can you believe that they charge 1200 GBP for the LS 50 where as it is available for 800 bucks in UK? I would rather pay a 500 bucks more and take the D2. As for the SF, the last one I heard were the Liuto towers and I found them a bit too mellow for my taste. Not a rock and roll speaker in my mind. Then again, impossible to get a demo.

- If looking at Proac, I would be suggesting Creek, Musical Fidelity, Arcam and Roksan - from your list......Others to consider, if available, would be Pathos, Sugden and Electrocompaniet.

What among the above would make the right synergy to deliver the sonic signature that I seek is the question. It is difficult to get a demo of most of these gears in this country let alone doing a comparo between amps on my speaker. Most dealers and distributors in my country have this despicable attitude of seeking rent for providing absolutely no value to the sales experience at all. They would hardly stock anything for demo. They would make it even more miserable for the buyers by demanding a 100% advance in lieu of anything that you would order from them to be delivered not less than 3 weeks from order.

Now coming back, I have heard quite a bit of the Naim Proac pairing. In fact I am told that ProAc uses Naim to pair with their D2s at various shows. Can someone tell me what specific Naim gear was used with the D2's at the Bristol show?

Also has anybody tried the creek destiny 2 amp with the Proac D2? I have heard them with the Epos Elan 15s. While there was an openness about the way the high and mids were rendered, I didn't find their bass engaging enough and more importantly I didn't see an as good a sound stage as that of what even my ProAc Studio 140s were capable of. So I was wondering how they would be when paired with the D2s as opposed to the Epos

So help solicited from anyone who can do a comparo between a Naim Unity2 pairing versus a Creek Destiny 2 pairing with the D2s?

 

[Overdose]

I don't know where abouts in India you are, but THESE guys might be worth a vist or at least a chat.

If the system is for your office, then maybe a digital front end consisting of your computer and DAC might be best. You effectively have most of what you need as far as a streamer goes (assuming that you have a computer in your home office).

 

[Exoticsounds]

You might also consider dac/int. amp combos like: Wadia 151PowerDAC, Teac AU-501 USB Amplifier, NuForce DDA-100 DAC/amp and Peachtree Decco65. Or pre-amp/dac + power amp like the upcomming Musical Fidelity M1 SDAC with 1(or 2) M1PWR amps.

 

[Singslinger]

Just a small suggestion - since you are prepared to go for the Naim Supernait, you might want to also try the Musical Fidelity M6i ( not the M3i you shortlisted) since it costs the same. Either one would be able to drive the Proacs well but they have a different presentation - the Naim is more forward while MF is a bit warmer and laid back. Personally I would go for the MF since it is less fussy cable-wise, offers more power and has a balanced input, but the Naim might be better suited to hard driving rock. A decent digital front end might be the Pioneer N-50 streamer which offers very good value. Good luck!

 

[avexplorer]

Hi Folks,

Did some extended research yesterday backed by some limited demo tests. Based on initial assessment I've put together a tentative configuration.

- Source: PC with JRiver Media Centre installed (not demoed)

- CD Transport / DAC: Cambridge Audio 851C (demoed with CA 851A & MA RX2)

- Integrated Amplifier: Creek Destiny 2 (demoed with Creek Destiny 2 CD & Epos Elan 15)

- Speaker: ProAc Response D2 (demoed with ARCAM A38 & CD37)

- Speaker Stands: Atacama HMS 2.1 (not demoed)

Now, please note that the components were not demoed together in the stated configuration. They were demoed with other gears. Let me what you think of the setup. How close do you see this configuration would be towards delivering a sonic signature which is detailed, accurate and has oodles of PRaT (Pace Rhythm and Timing) but on a moderately warm foundation? An important aspect of the sound is in the bass front. I need the snare drum to be attacking and a pedal drum to be deep (not wallow), tight and fast. And, not to forget that the total cost should be restricted to less than 5000 GBP or 7500 USD.

 

[CnoEvil]

Here are more thoughts (and they are nothing more than that):

- Go with brands that are not overpriced in your area.

- Do I gather that you have ruled out using your Proac 140s for 2 channel? Remember they would have 3 advantages for Stereo:

1] Save money, as they could be replaced in your AV system with some Proac Studio 110 / 115, which are cheaper.

2] You know you like them

3] More scale

- Be careful moving away from a brand of speakers that you know you like....though Epos are good, and work well with Creek.

- I would still advise going with a good streamer.

- Naim, like Cyrus, is a bit of a marmite brand.....so have a good listen, and make sure you also listen to the alternatives (like MF)

- Do you have access to Sugden and Electrocompaniet?

- It's of academic interest, but I believe the SF Venere range are cleaner and more open (while still enjoyable) than previous SF in that price range.

 

[avexplorer]

- Go with brands that are not overpriced in your area.

- Do I gather that you have ruled out using your Proac 140s for 2 channel? Remember they would have 3 advantages for Stereo:

1] Save money, as they could be replaced in your AV system with some Proac Studio 110 / 115, which are cheaper.

2] You know you like them

3] More scale

I can't agree more with your first point. That's precisely the reason why I am fixated on ProAc D2. For one I know that brand and I like them. Second and very importantly, I am getting a very sweet deal on it. The price offered in equal to the best price available in UK which is rare if not unique in our country. So even though I have access to other brands like the Harbeths, Monitor Audio, and PMC I have kind of made up my mind to stick with the D2, unless someone categorically warns me that these speakers would be way off from the sonic signature that I am in pursuit of.

As for using the Studio 140s, I just can't touch that system else I might risk 'domestic violence'. So I have to have a completely separate rig for my study / home office.

- Be careful moving away from a brand of speakers that you know you like....though Epos are good, and work well with Creek.

- Do you have access to Sugden and Electrocompaniet?

Personally I would go for the MF since it is less fussy cable-wise, offers more power and has a balanced input, but the Naim might be better suited to hard driving rock.

As I said before I am not considering any other brand or model of speakers at the moment which obviously includes Epos as well. What I need an opinion on though is how would the creek destiny 2 pairs up with the Proac D2s. Would the combination deliver the sonic signature that I want it to or should I look elsewhere like the Musical Fidelity as you and suggested.

The reason I am so particular about the creek is 'coz like the ProAcs, I am getting a sweet deal on the destiny 2. So unless the Naim or the MFs or the cyrus are going to be significantly better in terms of delivering that sonic signature I am looking for, it may be more prudent to go with the creek.

And yes Sugden is not available in India. Electrocompaniet is but like the Naims and the Kefs, the pricing from the respective distributors are just too way off from that of the international market.

- I would still advise going with a good streamer.

- Naim, like Cyrus, is a bit of a marmite brand.....so have a good listen, and make sure you also listen to the alternatives (like MF)

I am in two minds here. One option is to go with a good streamer like the Cyrus Stream Xp2 or Naim ND5XS or Linn Majik DS. But that would mean I still have to invest on a decent CD transport. The other option is to use something like the Cambridge Audio 851C which many reviews say has a superb DAC and a good enough CD transport as well. What are your thoughts on which of the 2 options would make a more pragmatic buy. Again, if the CA 851C would be way off from the solicited sonic signature, then there is no point considering that option irrespective of how good a deal I get for it or how spec wise convincing that option may seem.

BTW can you explain 'Marmite'?

 

[CnoEvil]

Marmite = Love/Hate

What is the importance of the CD Transport, as a streamer only needs connected to a NAS?.......sorry if I missed something here.

I am familiar with the Linn DS, so I'm more comfortable talking about it, and have a thread on them here: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/the-linn-ds-dsm-thread

I suspect the CA may be taking you away from the sound you are after, but can't say that for sure.

Only you can decide whether Creek or MF will suit better, as both are excellent......and the deal on the Creek may swing it for you. I can't comment on how either will work with Proac, as I haven't heard them together......but don't see why it wouldn't work.

Naim are certainly worth a good listen, as it may provide what you are looking for.

My advice is to take on board what was said here, and then do as much demoing as possible......but you know this. In fact I think underneath all, you know what to do, but need a sounding board and some confirmation that you are thinking along the right lines.

 

[avexplorer]

Marmite = Love/Hate

Thanx dude!!! another jargon to add to my AV vocabulary

What is the importance of the CD Transport, as a streamer only needs connected to a NAS?.......sorry if I missed something here.

I have about 100 odd XRCDs which I dont want to throw away just yet. Hence the need for a CD transport which can work 'on-top' of a DAC (internal or external). Of course the DAC would also be fed from a NAS which will store my FLACs

I suspect the CA may be taking you away from the sound you are after, but can't say that for sure.

Thats my biggest fear!!! The CA 850 C although fits the bill perfectly in terms of my functional need, could perhaps take me away from my sonic want. The only way to dispel my fear and take me towards a decision would be by demoing an arrangement of the 850C feeding a creek destiny 2 or an MF 6i powering the D2s. I know that is impossible to achieve in the context of the dealer practices prevailing in here.

My advice is to take on board what was said here, and then do as much demoing as possible......but you know this. In fact I think underneath all, you know what to do, but need a sounding board and some confirmation that you are thinking along the right lines.

It's scary to know how well you read my unsaid intent much of which is ‘coz I don’t have the luxury of demoing much of the desired equipment at all let alone in the manner I want to

 

[Novaportian]

Good evening and welcome!

Have you considered an all in one streaming system like Naim's Uniti range? As you can see from my signature I'm running some Proac D28 with my Superuniti. I'm well and truly a Proac convert, love their speakers!

The Superuniti amp is based on the Supernait and I love the sound I get from this. I demo'd the D2 and I was torn between those and the D18. That was until the dealer brought out the D28 the bas@#*d! The D2 is a brilliant speaker, you won't go wrong there!

As always, have a good demo if you can. The amps that Cno mentions would all be great choices too.

cheers,

Nick

 

[CnoEvil]

I have little experience of XRCD, but is it not more to do with the mastering process, as it can't be high-res, because it can be played on a CDP.......thus, can it not be ripped with something like Accurate Rip?

Edit: http://www.head-fi.org/t/262837/xrcd-to-flac-any-loss-in-quality

There are those that don't believe that the Transport has an effect, but I do.....though it can be offset to some extent with a Dac.

I've been in this game for nearly forty years, so I know exactly where you are coming from.........but am uncomfortable "telling" you what to do.

 

[avexplorer]

Have you considered an all in one streaming system like Naim's Uniti range? As you can see from my signature I'm running some Proac D28 with my Superuniti. I'm well and truly a Proac convert, love their speakers!

Hey Nick: I am certainly considering the Naim not just the Uniti2 and but the Super Uniti as well. But with Naim being so apptly referred to as a 'marmite' (love it or hate it) brand, it takes a lot of courage to put your money on it with no way to hear them in here. The other brand that @CnoEvil referred to by that character are the Cyrus, which having heard at a friend's place is something I can say with conviction that I would hate to pair with any ProAc. I feel they made the 1SC's lose a lot of pace and detail and things were a little too muddy for my taste. But then there were some who enjoyed that mix.

That's the trick with Naim too I would guess. Therefore, I am in some sense trying to measure up a Naim using a reference of things I have heard before. The answer that I am perhaps looking for is what sort of sound signature can i expect from the Naim-ProAc combo? Is it going to be significantly different from the Creek Destiny 2 or the MF 6i or the Arcam A38. In what way?

To make matters even trickier, the Naim's are priced easily 20% more than the MSRPs they are available for in the UK; thanks to the greed factor of the local distributor. Fortunately it’s not that way with the Creeks or the Arcams or the Roksan's. Now knowing the Naim's skewed prices, they need to sound significantly better than the others mentioned so as to deserve that kind of premium. I hope you are able to appreciate the predicament I am in.

cheers

 

[Singslinger]

I've had some experience with the CA 851c and 851a. Of the two, the 851c is the better buy IMO - yes it has a superb DAC that's on par with others that are more expensive. The 851a offers decent value but I believe the ProAc D2s deserve a better amp as I heard it driving D18s and was not too impressed. You should also know that the 851a runs hot and to my ears, is a bit bass-light ( though this can probably be addressed with its tone controls). It also takes quite a while to run in (at least 36 hours as per CA's recommendation).

Sorry I haven't heard the Creek so can't comment but IMO ProAc works best with Sugden first (or any good quality class A amp), followed by MF and Naim.

Good luck - half the fun is doing the research and auditioning! :cheers: :dance:

 

[Novaportian]

Hi,

It's a shame that the naim gear has a premium attached over there, I would always recommend a demo first. My system sounds well balanced, slightly sweet sound but not laid back. I've got quite a large room so I've got the D28 at 1.5m away from the back wall, they need plenty of room otherwise the bass can sound overblown.

I think the D2 will be a bit fussy over partnering gear so I would recommend a quality amp and source. I've heard a Roksan Caspian drive some D18 and it sounded good to my ears. I went with the Superuniti for plenty of reasons, apart from the sound I wanted a one box solution and its got plenty of connectivity. I've got my blu ray, sky box and apple airport plugged in, and a B & W pv1 sub for films! It was a big investment for me but it feels like it will last for a very long time.

There are some amps out there with built in DACs, Primare, MF and Cyrus spring to mind. I'm sure some of the other guys on hear will help with their opinion on some other gear they have heard. I hope I have been of some help!

cheers

Nick

 

[avexplorer]

Did an audition of an unexpected pair of speakers today!! They were the Event Opal Pro Monitors. They came with some heavy recommendations.

O-boy

SENSATIONAL!! MESMERIZING!!

I was just speechless with what I heard.

This has completely changed the complexion of the game.

 

[Craig M.]

 

[Overdose]

How did we get around to the active brigade charging in again?

 

[Overdose]

On a more serious note, the Opals are being talked about on a few other hi-fi forums and are being seen as somewhat of a revelation to those not familiar with actives and pro audio. The OP now appears to have heard what the fuss is all about.

 

[CnoEvil]

Did an audition of an unexpected pair of speakers today!! They were the Event Opal Pro Monitors. They came with some heavy recommendations.

O-boy

SENSATIONAL!! MESMERIZING!!

I was just speechless with what I heard.

This has completely changed the complexion of the game.

This is all good.

I think you now have your benchmark, so make sure you do a couple of other demos, and if possible, try and hear them in-situ.

Let us know how it all goes.

Cno

 

[avexplorer]

Okay, so unlike the last journey which lasted for over 4 months, this time round it was a quick burst 4 weeks and I think I am close to base lining my gear hunt and move on to the price negotiations. This is what my Hi-Fi stack looks:

Digital Front End: Cambridge Audio 851C

Active Monitors: Event Opal

Headphone Amp: Beyerdynamic A1

Headphones: Beyerdynamic T1

Stands: Atacama HMS 2.1



Here though, I would have to admit that I have not heard the components in this stated combination. However against last time where I could not audition anything and purely had to go by reviews and forums, this time I did manage to get a demo of every gear even though they were combined with other associated equipment. So clearly, the premium end AV market is maturing in this country.

The basis on which I made my judgement call was that all of these components (barring the stands of course ) appeared to offer a consistent sonic signature. Individually each one of those equipment delivered a largely clean, transparent, fast and neutral rendition with the Event monitors & the Beyerdynamic headphones providing just that little touch of warmth. So in theory, when combined, together they should come close to delivering the sound that I was in pursuit of; or at least that’s what I hope they do ray:

I acknowledge that this has been a huge swing from the initial aim of building a stack around the ProAc D2's as that was a sound I knew well. But such has been the impact of the Event Opal monitors; everything went through a tail spin. There is also a positive side effect of using these studio speakers. As I had said, this was for my home office / study. Being near field monitors, I now have the flexibility of arranging my sitting position without being constrained by the minimum distance at which I should keep the equipment. Added to that, I can now use my workstation laptop itself to feed the digital front ends without a need to invest on a dedicated media centre PC.

Coming to think of it, for use-cases such as mine (study / home office use) near field studio monitors can offer a compelling proposition as an alternative to audiophile hi-fi speakers.

 

[Overdose]

Coming to think of it, for use-cases such as mine (study / home office use) near field studio monitors can offer a compelling proposition as an alternative to audiophile hi-fi speakers.

Quite a few people are coming around to the idea that studio monitors offer a superb solution for many hifi situations and the Opals in particular have been turning quite a few hifi heads. Their value to performance ratio is unmatched by hifi in general.

Those Opals, whilst being 'nearfield' will sound just as good in a more open and traditional hifi type environment, The 'near field' designation relates to their ability to sound cohesive at close range, which hifi speakers are not designed to do.

The Opals were on my wish list, but were a stretch too far financially, but I'm more than happy with my choice.

Enjoy the music.

 

[Craig M.]

Those Opals, whilst being 'nearfield' will sound just as good in a more open and traditional hifi type environment

True, I'm sat about 15 feet from mine. The HMS2 stands are a good match, size wise and visually, with the Opals, they're what I have. Because the base of the Opals is slightly curved, you might want something like THIS to go between the base and the stands top plate, blu tac is no good as it just gets squeezed out.

Btw, It's not just you, Overdose, and me who thinks they are special.

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?77756-The-next-mammoth-review!-The-Event-Opal-Studio-Monitors

 

[CnoEvil]

Btw, It's not just you, Overdose, and me who thinks they are special.

http://www.hifiwigwam.com/showthread.php?77756-The-next-mammoth-review!-The-Event-Opal-Studio-Monitors

Very good read.

They must do something right, when a guy with an AN system is impressed after they are swapped over.