A Hard lesson to learn about Airplay

[matthook]

Just so you guys know and don't end up in the situation as me. This is the stuff that no one mentions and does not want to publish or admit.

I bought only a few weeks ago a Pioneer VSX-1021 amplifer specifically because it had airplay and some of the other features seemed quite cool. I should also mention I have BT Infinity broadband with a BT HomeHub 2 Type 'B'.

However I ran into a problem using Apple Airplay. When I first powered on the amp it would work fine. I could use my iPad or iPhone to play music stored on either device which I thought was a really cool feature. Then the porblems started! After about 5-30 use it would stop playing and then the airplay icon would disppear.

Therefore I called Pioneer for support thier response was it should just work. But try connecting a laptop via ethernet to the router and the amp to the router so they all have a hardwired connection. I was using Win 7 running iTunes and I disabled wifi on the router. I still had the problem. I phoned pioneer back and they said either the fault lies with the amp or the router.

I took the amp back to the retailer and they tested airplay for 3 days without any problems. The only difference was they were using a draytek router.

Went back to Pioneer they did not want to know and they said it is either Apple or BT's fault.

I did some research and found that other people were complaining on the BT forums and Apple forums that Airplay was incompatible with BT routers.

I contacted BT and they were really poor and suggest it's Apple's fault.

I went back to Pioneer and I said they need to let customers know about this but again they were not interested. Really poor customer service.

I then went to Apple retail shop who said they were going to swap my phone even though I said I had a problem with my iPad and Windows Laptop. They suggested I contact Apple Care which is chargable. I said I thought that was a bit unfair as it is Apple's technology that does not work and that other customers would get the same issue. Tried Apple care anyway but they said it was the fault of the router, I suggested that perhaps they should work with BT.

Anyway to cut a long story short all 3 providers were really unhelpful and all had extremely poor customer service.

The only solution I found was to spend £120 on a netgear router. Belkin routers apparently have airplay issue as well. I should not have had to do this! I am going to seek some form of compensaton from Pioneer as they are the manfacturer.

Note this also affects Denon and Marantz. All these companies need to work together to come up with a solution.

So if you expect airplay to work first time make sure it's compatible with your router.

I think there needs to be a note in the magazine and perhaps What Hifi could take this up the various manufactures and point this out to potential customers, especially when spending £600 and it does not work. Remember half of all uk broadban customers are on BT. As airplay becomes more popular this will become a bigger issue.

I would have got the money back on my amp but as it's not technically faulty from a retail point of view I can't.

 

[Lee H]

I am going to seek some form of compensaton from Pioneer as they are the manfacturer.

Yet it was a problem with the router wan't it? Not sure how that is Pioneer's problem.

 

[The_Lhc]

I am going to seek some form of compensaton from Pioneer as they are the manfacturer.

Yet it was a problem with the router wan't it? Not sure how that is Pioneer's problem.

It isn't, BT's routers have been known to cause problems with Sonos as well, it's BT he should be seeking a refund from.

 

[Lee H]

Personally, I wouldn't touch a HomeHub. I do a fair bit of online PS3 gaming and it isn't the best router for that. Any ISP that dictates which router you have to use isn't for me.

 

[Andy Clough]

A few quotes from our Apple AirPlay 'Living With' feature we ran in the May issue of the mag, which may be relevant:

"A couple of caveats. First, as with any wi-fi based system, the stability of playback depends on the robstness of your wi-fi network. Sound dropout and interference can be regular occurrences."

"Everybody's wi-fi system will be different. In our experience, interference from other networks and devices such as microwaves and cordless phones can have an effect, causing the the wi-fi to slow or cut out."

"Getting AirPlay to run consistently without any dropout proved a challenge, and despite changing channels on our AirPort Extreme router to minimise interference from neighbours' wi-fi networks, we never entirely eradicated the problem."

"We've also noticed that iPhones and iPads are prone to dropping the AirPlay icon, which sometimes requires a reboot to get it back again."

I haven't any direct experience of BT routers (I'm on a Virgin network), but AirPlay isn't flawless, and that's certainly not something we glossed over or failed to mention in the article.

You might find my blog on Apple AirPlay/wi-fi useful too.

 

[matthook]

I agree with everyones comments, unfortunately when the technology also fails on a wired network with iTunes on Laptop connected with no Wifi then there has to be a fundamental issue with the Apple software.

Even rebooting the iDevice did not restore airplay and neither did resetting the router. I had to switch the amp off at the mains. You can magine that doing this 10 times in 1 hour is frustrating.

Having switched to the netgear hub I have no issues with the Airplay at all. However it annoys me that neither Apple nor Pioneer mention any incompatiblity issues.

Unfortunately it is not simple for everyone to switch. If you have BT vision then you may be stuck with a BT Homehub unless you wire the amp to a seperate network or extend the wireless network. With BT routers that is not easy.

I don't use BT vision so I could change but it is also a pain that BT won't support you if you have problems. I should ahve siad previously this also applies to the BT HomeHub version 3.0. What I don't know is if it only affects BT Infinity broadband. This routers have a wan port with no modem which is the same as a cable router. I replaced the home hub with a Netgear WNDR3700 cable router.

 

[matthook]

Should also state that with both routers my wifi performance has been fantastic.

My set-up was Pioneer connected by ethernet to homehub (100mb) and using iPad in same room running airplay. So streaming music from iPad directly to AV amp. So all these are in the same room. I measured about 80mbps wifi. That is more than enough for audio.

Trouble is something on airplay is causing the issue. I tried using static ip addresses on the router and iPad to stop any DHCP leases expiring and did the same with the laptop.

But plain and simple Airplay fails to work with BT Home Hubs so if you intend to buy one for this purpose change your router if you on BT.

Just trying to forewarn so you don't end up in the same trap.

 

[Paul.]

Thats good to know.

Unfortunately I think all freebie routers are awful. I had a Huwai from talk talk, absolute junk, Airplay was inconsistent. Sent it back and demanded a D-link (the only other option from talk talk) and it was noticeably better but still a bit rubbish with Airplay. In the end I plugged a superior cable only wifi router my brother had kicking around in to a spare ethernet socket (another D-link, with added antennae), and connect everything via the second router. Airplay is pretty stable, only get a sound drop out once a week ish now. Never loose the airplay logo either anymore.

 

[kinda]

I suppose this is one of the problems with all the connected technology - you get the kind of problems experienced in networked IT systems which can be very difficult to pinpoint. Unexpected approaches or incorrectly implemented standards in one device can affect others.

My iPod Touch for whatever reason has a problem with the DHCP from some Netgear routers. A firmware upgrade cured it on my last router, but now I've switched to Orange and got a new netgear router it's back. I've set the iPod Touch to have static IP which has seemed to solve it. I tried to do this previously but the interface is very flakey around tose settings, and understanding how to save the static IP wasn't easy - so much for Apple's easy UI and 'it just works' philosophy.

Also now my BluRay player can't access video streams. It can browse LoveFilm, and BBC iPlayer but no streaming. Streaming fine from my NAS, and from LoveFilm / iPlayer via PC. Hopefully I'll get it sorted via Orange.

 

[Tom Moreno]

I suppose this is one of the problems with all the connected technology - you get the kind of problems experienced in networked IT systems which can be very difficult to pinpoint. Unexpected approaches or incorrectly implemented standards in one device can affect others.

My iPod Touch for whatever reason has a problem with the DHCP from some Netgear routers. A firmware upgrade cured it on my last router, but now I've switched to Orange and got a new netgear router it's back. I've set the iPod Touch to have static IP which has seemed to solve it. I tried to do this previously but the interface is very flakey around tose settings, and understanding how to save the static IP wasn't easy - so much for Apple's easy UI and 'it just works' philosophy.

Also now my BluRay player can't access video streams. It can browse LoveFilm, and BBC iPlayer but no streaming. Streaming fine from my NAS, and from LoveFilm / iPlayer via PC. Hopefully I'll get it sorted via Orange.

I think this post hits the nail on the head. Networks are by their own nature pretty complex technology and "easy for the masses" approach that ISPs take of giving people cheap as chips routers with dumbed-down firmware is only ever going to work in the most basic of setups (ie a computer or two that only need access to general internet). If you're looking to connect more complex shared services around your house your best bet is to buy a 3rd party router that allows you to configure it and set up the services you need to share. This is one reason I love O2/Be broadband is that they are very open to end users using their own equipment and will support you in setting it up for their networks. This is also why I haven't signed up for Virgin's fibre-optic cable service yet as I'm waiting for the promised firmware to use their hub as a dumbed down modem only in bridge mode (allowing you to interface that with your own network hardware).

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

This is also why I haven't signed up for Virgin's fibre-optic cable service yet as I'm waiting for the promised firmware to use their hub as a dumbed down modem only in bridge mode (allowing you to interface that with your own network hardware).

I am in the same boat but only after signing up to 30mb and the moving back to 20mb on the old modem. I think I will be waiting a while.

The airplay issue is well known and the main problem is the free router. Unfortunately the issue is inconsistent accross deivces and networks. As has been mentioned these freebies are not expected to do much although most consumers are led to have a high expectation.

Thankfully a good router is not too expensive and normally brings other benefits.

 

[MajorFubar]

Not that this is a particularly helpful comment, but just run it by me again why I choose to use CDs as a primary format, played from a good old fashioned CD player through a good old fasioned amp, and if I want MP3 versions for my phone I make them specifically.

That wasn't intended to sound condascending or unempathetic, but it seems to me technology like this is too embryonic yet, and so these are the problems that arise unfortunately. Consumers like Matthook end up with something which in reality is less PnP than a 1970s Cray Mainframe, then they end up spending more money to make something work which they had every reason to expect would work straight away. All the while, the manufacturers point the fingers of blame at each other.

 

[Paul.]

Just bin the freebie router and everything will be fine. I enjoy listening to music by genre or by artist, rarely do I listent to a whole album. The convinience of streaming direct from my iPhone and smart playlists for casual listening is worth a slight reduction in sound quality.

 

[Lee H]

I still use my freebie router with Sonos and it works just fine. I did choose my ISP based on the fact that I wasn't locked in to their router though so I could get a better one if I needed to.

 

[chebby]

This is also why I haven't signed up for Virgin's fibre-optic cable service yet as I'm waiting for the promised firmware to use their hub as a dumbed down modem only in bridge mode (allowing you to interface that with your own network hardware).

I am in the same boat but only after signing up to 30mb and the moving back to 20mb on the old modem. I think I will be waiting a while.

The airplay issue is well known and the main problem is the free router. Unfortunately the issue is inconsistent accross deivces and networks. As has been mentioned these freebies are not expected to do much although most consumers are led to have a high expectation.

Thankfully a good router is not too expensive and normally brings other benefits.

I am currently on Virgin Media's 10Mbps cable broadband service. I want to upgrade to 30Mbps. (It will only cost me £2.50 more per month.)

However, before doing so, I have to wait for the much anticipated VM Super Hub firmware upgrade release R29 to let me use the Super Hub as a dumb, one ethernet port modem.

I can then plug in my existing, reliable, and - so far - excellent Apple Aiport Extreme 802.11n wireless base station as I do now. (No wireless dropout's in 4 years and I want it to stay that way!)

I am keeping tabs on the R29 firmware release updates on the Virgin Media forum (the release is still in Beta testing due to a 5Ghz band issue/bug that won''t even affect me if I can can turn off all the wireless 'gubbins' as intended.)

I wish Virgin Media would simply provide an alternative, non-wireless, modem option for customers who have existing wireless gear that works. (Or who don't want wireless.)

Hopefully not too long to wait now.

 

[matthewpiano]

Not that this is a particularly helpful comment, but just run it by me again why I choose to use CDs as a primary format, played from a good old fashioned CD player through a good old fasioned amp, and if I want MP3 versions for my phone I make them specifically.

That wasn't intended to sound condascending or unempathetic, but it seems to me technology like this is too embryonic yet, and so these are the problems that arise unfortunately. Consumers like Matthook end up with something which in reality is less PnP than a 1970s Cray Mainframe, then they end up spending more money to make something work which they had every reason to expect would work straight away. All the while, the manufacturers point the fingers of blame at each other.

I had exactly the same thoughts as you as I read this thread. I'm currently playing the Tom Petty Anthology CD, enjoying superb sound and with no connectivity issues - just music, pure and simple.

 

[MarantzLover]

No harm to anyone here - but this is absolutely nothing to do with either Pioneer, iHome, Denon, Marantz or Apple - this purely is down to the fact that the BT homehub is a poorly specified, cheaply manufactured that BT give as a freebie.

Having extensively tested a number of routers and the following devices:

• iPhone 3gs
• iPhone 4
• iPhone 4s
• iPad 1 64gb
• iPad 2 32gb
• iPod touch 3gen
• Apple Macbook 2007 with iTunes
• Apple Macbook Air 2009 with iTunes
• Apple Macbook Pro 2007 with iTunes
• Apple Mac G5 with iTunes
• Dell Laptop with iTunes
• Toshiba laptop with iTunes
• 
  I can conlusively say that in every single test with a BT homehub 2.0 - that if the you have one single idevice running on the network with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE - no computers connected on wifi - nothing connected by cat 5 etc that you can get a connection with the homehub - for about 5 minutes. once the airplay connection terminates (which it will do) you will not see Airpolay again unless you turn off the iDevice, shut down the router, turn the router back on and then when everything is allright on the router... turn the iDevice back on - a connection will be possible - again for only a very minimal amount of time.
  
  if you manage to sustain a connection for longer than 5 minutes (the longest I experienced was 22minutes) - then try this for giggles.... if you even so much even turn on a computer, blackberry, or any other wifi device...... say goodbye to Airplay!
• The way to get airplay back again is to restart the entire network again when the iDevices are completely turned off and no other wired or wireless access is in place.
• My beleif is that the lack of adequate multiplexing support within the BT homehub may be the reason for the lack of Airplay support. BT are useless, and incidentally their routers were built and based upon (Type A) Thomson Speedtouch manufacturing - later (Type B) to be manufactured by Sagem gigaset. BT did try and release a multiplexing firmware update some time ago - but their attempts failed.

If you have greif and want a channel to feed it back to.... using BT's own forums is the best place as they are monitored by BT - but at the end of the day BT still won't do anything to help you - they do not manufacture or supply anything that will do your job.

• 
  The solution - save yourselves lots of grief - just spend even as little as £20-£30 on a router from almost any manufacturer and get Airplay up and running. I have two routers on two different connections where my airplay is. The cheaper of the two is about £15 and manufactured by sweex - its almost bulletproof it's so good.
  
  stick along the lines of Belkin, Netgear or other mainstream manufacturers who offer good back up and support for their router.
• Again.... please understand that this has nothing to do with any of the manufacturers who adopt the Apple Airplay APi and integrate it into their units. It is unfair to expect the receiver manufacturers to resolve the issues that clearly are down to the poor design and implentation of a really inadequate router - it is even more unfair to make such sweeping suggestions as to try and claim back compensation from manufacturers - they've done nothing wrong!
• 
  Thankyou

 

[MarantzLover]

Is it not the case that SONOS does not use your router - using its own ZoneNet protocol instead - the only way I think that routers are important in a sonos setup is if you are using and iPhone to control it.

Sonos operates on different radio channels that regular wifi - i think if I remember they have to be about 5 channels apart from your wifi to prevent radio interferance issues.

Thanks

 

[chebby]

I already assumed it was common 'wisdom' that BT Homehubs should be replaced with something competent the second after the installer has left.

 

[The_Lhc]

Is it not the case that SONOS does not use your router - using its own ZoneNet protocol instead

Not really, the router is required to provide IP addresses to the Sonos devices and to provide the link from Sonos to the source, whether that's a NAS, PC/MAC or the internet and the link to any non-Sonos control devices.

Sonos operates on different radio channels that regular wifi - i think if I remember they have to be about 5 channels apart from your wifi to prevent radio interferance issues.

I don't know what you're thinking of but it certainly isn't Sonos. Sonosnet is based on standard wi-fi and uses EXACTLY the same channels as wi-fi does. In fact the vast majority of issues with Sonos stem from wireless interference, the usual fix is to ensure that your router and Sonos are using different channels and that the router has any wideband options switched off (as they cover far more of the available channels than "normal" wi-fi does).

 

[plastic penguin]

Oooodear - I'm pleased I've held back on this streaming malarky given I have only a Talk Talk router. My preferred option was Airplay. (Looking for a Scooby-Doo caption)

 

[SnowyJohn]

Does anybody actually have an explanation as to why so many routers drop wifi connections on a regular basis? The amount of times I've had to simply turn a router off and turn it back on again to resume wifi is farsicle.

The problem is compounded when Sky/BT etc demand the use of their own routers... For a number of years, I've been using a secondary Apple router (Time Capsule), operated in bridge mode, to handle my wireless connections.

As a matter of fact, I'm going to call Sky and request a new router.

 

[The_Lhc]

Does anybody actually have an explanation as to why so many routers drop wifi connections on a regular basis? The amount of times I've had to simply turn a router off and turn it back on again to resume wifi is farsicle.

"farsicle - An icicle a long way away..." (with apologies to ISIHAC)

If you live in a built up area it's almost certainly due to to wireless interference. Wi-fi effectively only has three channels to choose from, if you have three or more neighbours in close proximity then you're going to struggle finding a reliable channel to use.

 

[Paul.]

Someone in my hotel learned a hard lesson about AirPlay this morning... They left their zeppelin attached to the hotels wifi network, so they got a dose of 'banana phone' by rafi

 

[bigboss]

No harm to anyone here - but this is absolutely nothing to do with either Pioneer, iHome, Denon, Marantz or Apple - this purely is down to the fact that the BT homehub is a poorly specified, cheaply manufactured that BT give as a freebie.

Having extensively tested a number of routers and the following devices:

• iPhone 3gs
• iPhone 4
• iPhone 4s
• iPad 1 64gb
• iPad 2 32gb
• iPod touch 3gen
• Apple Macbook 2007 with iTunes
• Apple Macbook Air 2009 with iTunes
• Apple Macbook Pro 2007 with iTunes
• Apple Mac G5 with iTunes
• Dell Laptop with iTunes
• Toshiba laptop with iTunes
• 
  I can conlusively say that in every single test with a BT homehub 2.0 - that if the you have one single idevice running on the network with ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE - no computers connected on wifi - nothing connected by cat 5 etc that you can get a connection with the homehub - for about 5 minutes. once the airplay connection terminates (which it will do) you will not see Airpolay again unless you turn off the iDevice, shut down the router, turn the router back on and then when everything is allright on the router... turn the iDevice back on - a connection will be possible - again for only a very minimal amount of time.
  
  if you manage to sustain a connection for longer than 5 minutes (the longest I experienced was 22minutes) - then try this for giggles.... if you even so much even turn on a computer, blackberry, or any other wifi device...... say goodbye to Airplay!
• The way to get airplay back again is to restart the entire network again when the iDevices are completely turned off and no other wired or wireless access is in place.
• My beleif is that the lack of adequate multiplexing support within the BT homehub may be the reason for the lack of Airplay support. BT are useless, and incidentally their routers were built and based upon (Type A) Thomson Speedtouch manufacturing - later (Type B) to be manufactured by Sagem gigaset. BT did try and release a multiplexing firmware update some time ago - but their attempts failed.

If you have greif and want a channel to feed it back to.... using BT's own forums is the best place as they are monitored by BT - but at the end of the day BT still won't do anything to help you - they do not manufacture or supply anything that will do your job.

• 
  The solution - save yourselves lots of grief - just spend even as little as £20-£30 on a router from almost any manufacturer and get Airplay up and running. I have two routers on two different connections where my airplay is. The cheaper of the two is about £15 and manufactured by sweex - its almost bulletproof it's so good.
  
  stick along the lines of Belkin, Netgear or other mainstream manufacturers who offer good back up and support for their router.
• Again.... please understand that this has nothing to do with any of the manufacturers who adopt the Apple Airplay APi and integrate it into their units. It is unfair to expect the receiver manufacturers to resolve the issues that clearly are down to the poor design and implentation of a really inadequate router - it is even more unfair to make such sweeping suggestions as to try and claim back compensation from manufacturers - they've done nothing wrong!
• 
  Thankyou

I've got BT Home Hub 2.0, never had any issues with AirPlay as yet. Wifi dropouts are quite rare as well, despite around 15 devices connected to the wifi network at the same time.