‘Muddy’ sound using cassette tapes/deck/through quality hi fi components

[good_enough]

The tribalism in all walks of life is always entertaining. I was into cycling for a while and people used to get bulging eyes on forums shouting virtually over their keyboards about which group-sets were the best - all utterly pointless.

I'm new to this forum but see the same aimless frothing about DACs, media formats and other topics, when it all ultimately comes down to preference, the same as with which gear manufacturer you choose for your bike.

One thing that I think isn't black and white is the statement "many still want to make their listening a chore and unrewarding". I think that misses a critical point - one person's chore is another person's passion.

I used the convenience and speed of streaming yesterday to hear Taj Mahal's "Live At The Church In Tulsa" for the first time. I instantly ordered it on vinyl and have been enjoying it this afternoon. Does it sound "better"? Maybe, maybe not. But is the whole package of putting it on and turning the two LPs over after just two or three songs worth it? Yep - for me it's a fuller and more rewarding experience than just streaming the same album.

Some albums I'll never intend to own on vinyl and I'll get plenty of satisfaction streaming them instead, but for my preference and how I choose to consume music, some albums are just made to be heard through that medium, and I'm sure that nostalgia and other factors make tape sometimes the preferred format for other listeners. It's all up to the individual and pointless trying to corral people into a single pigeon-hole.

With you on this. My albums represent the circumstances in which I acquired them and often memories about that time.

Additionally as you say some things just sound right as they were originally released. 'What's Going On' or the flip side of 'Abbey Road' come to mine.

 

[Gray]

I wasn't that posh kid at school with the new trainers and best bikes whenever they came out

Tell me about it Stuart.
Other kids had Action Man.
Me and my brother shared 'Combat Johnny' - that my Mum got for about a 10th of the price down the market.

We always knew it was inferior....(and that our Mum was superior).

 

[Jasonovich]

Tell me about it Stuart.
Other kids had Action Man.
Me and my brother shared 'Combat Johnny' - that my Mum got for about a 10th of the price down the market.

We always knew it was inferior....(and that our Mum was superior).

Nah that's nothing, I had to transgender my sister's Barbie Sindy doll 🤣

 

[podknocker]

You have still never answered how you can listen to recordings that are not available on streaming, only on olde formats. (And there are thousands of them)

Bill

You say there are thousands of recordings not available on any streaming platform and I don't doubt this, but I'm 55 and I have a very eclectic taste in music. The music I listen to is always available online and I'm sure that's the same for 99% of people streaming their music. Why would anyone care about obscure, poor quality and niche recordings not being available online? The number of recordings online which are not available on cassette or vinyl far exceeds the material not available online. There are 100 million tunes online and the number of tunes only found on the old formats vanishes into insignificance compared to what's available on streaming. Around 99% of the music I stream is not available and will never be available on CD, never mind some old fashioned physical format from the 60s. I bet 99% of every recording in history is available online, plus all the podcasts and ebooks you can enjoy. There is zero benefit in holding onto ancient formats, with the lack of choice and inferior sound quality. I get the feeling some people would like to see the return of wax cylinders, holding the most obscure ancient recordings with next to nobody wanting to hear them. I've said it before, but the WHF demographic must be very old and not interested in modern recordings, nor interested in the modern playback methods available for these modern recordings. The argument for not streaming is getting weaker by the day on this site and it just confirms my belief that people fear change and are stuck in some rose tinted nostalgic view of the world. It still amazes me that people bang on about choice and wanting to hold onto their dated formats and then have a go at CD or streaming platforms. If you want to mess about with vinyl and crappy cassettes, then go for it, but don't try to berate modern music and modern music delivery methods when they offer more choice, not less and offer much better sound quality. Wanting faff AND worse quality sound reproduction is just a stubborn reluctance to accept that technology improves and progress is a good thing. The Luddite mentality in this sector is bewildering. In most areas of life, people would relish and appreciate change and progress, but on this forum, there seems to be a head in the sand approach to progress. 'Leave me alone with my poor quality vinyl and cassettes, because I don't like more choice and better sound quality'. Many on here openly admit it's not about sound quality, but the ritual of playing vinyl, or the collection of rare and poor quality recordings. It's fine as a hobby, but I was under the impression this forum was the pursuit of high fidelity and authentic music reproduction. It's turning into What Faff and no longer aspires to acheiving the best possible system for the money. It's obsessive vinyl collectors, sniffing their sleeve notes and prioritising the ritual of their preferred playback method, over the ultimate goal of attaining superior sound quality in order to better appreciate their favourite music. Utterly bizarre.

 

[Gray]

You say there are thousands of recordings not available on any streaming platform and I don't doubt this, but I'm 55 and I have a very eclectic taste in music. The music I listen to is always available online and I'm sure that's the same for 99% of people streaming their music. Why would anyone care about obscure, poor quality and niche recordings not being available online? The number of recordings online which are not available on cassette or vinyl far exceeds the material not available online. There are 100 million tunes online and the number of tunes only found on the old formats vanishes into insignificance compared to what's available on streaming. Around 99% of the music I stream is not available and will never be available on some old fashioned physical format from the 70s. I bet 99% of every recording in history is available online, plus all the podcasts and ebooks you can enjoy. There is zero benefit in holding onto ancient formats, with the lack of choice and inferior sound quality. I get the feeling some people would like to see the return of wax cylinders, holding the most obscure ancient recordings with next to nobody wanting to hear them. I've said it before, but the WHF demographic must be very old and not interested in modern recordings, nor interested in the modern playback methods available for these modern recordings. The argument for not streaming is getting weaker by the day on this site and it just confirms my belief that people fear change and are stuck in some rose tinted nostalgic view of the world. It still amazes me that people bang on about choice and wanting to hold onto their dated formats and then have a go at CD or streaming platforms. If you want to mess about with vinyl and crappy cassettes, then go for it, but don't try to berate modern music and modern music delivery methods when it offers more choice, not less and offers much better sound quality. Wanting faff AND worse quality sound reproduction is just a stubborn reluctance to accept that technology improves and progress is a good thing. The Luddite mentality in this sector is bewildering. In most areas of life, people would relish and appreciate change and progress, but on this forum, there seems to be a head in the sand approach to progress. 'Leave me alone with my poor quality vinyl and cassettes, because I don't like more choice and better sound quality' Utterly bizarre.

Who's rattled Pod's cage again?
Seriously Pod, save yourself the trouble.

All I can say is that no streaming has better sound quality than my CDs (even if it is higher than 16/44.1).

And as for technology improving and being a good thing....
If it did always improve things, it might be a good thing.
I just recommended a nice Panasonic OLED to a mate - who bought it.
Nice picture.
But the setup, thanks to the 'improved' technology....what a ......g unintuitive, frustrating faff before he and his wife could watch TV via an aerial, which is all they want to do.

As it happens, I previously installed and setup TVs for a retail chain and have got a few electronics qualifications, but as far as I'm concerned, you can keep half your new, improved tech boy!

....and good luck when the updates stop 🤞

 

[podknocker]

Who's rattled Pod's cage again?
Seriously Pod, save yourself the trouble.

All I can say is that no streaming has better sound quality than my CDs (even if it is higher than 16/44.1).

And as for technology improving and being a good thing....
If it did always improve things, it might be a good thing.
I just recommended a nice Panasonic OLED to a mate - who bought it.
Nice picture.
But the setup, thanks to the 'improved' technology....what a ......g unintuitive, frustrating faff before he and his wife could watch TV via an aerial, which is all they want to do.

As it happens, I previously installed and setup TVs for a retail chain and have got a few electronics qualifications, but as far as I'm concerned, you can keep half your new, improved tech boy!

....and good luck when the updates stop 🤞

If the master used for CD is the same as the one used on streaming services, then it will be the same quality. It will be a bit forbit copy and the same quality. A higher than CD quality file on a streaming service will give better sound quality than CD. This is a technical argument, as many people would struggle to hear the difference between CD and a higher res format. I certainly heard a difference when I played SACDs and the improvement over the CD layer was obvious, although not huge. With modern TVs, there are many competing technologies and the TV sector is in a state of flux at the moment, but it will settle down eventually, when someone finally decides which tech is the most convincing and reliable.

 

[abacus]

If you look at streaming services, most use remastered files rather than the originals (And many of them are substandard to the originals (The loudness wars really killed quality), therefore if you want the best, you have no option but to go for the originals.
As to TVs, then they have been in flux for a good 25yrs and its highly unlikely it will ever change, as there will always be some improvement around the corner.
Interesting article on sales of media have just been posted on WHF here which proves that legacy formats are not just a fad, but that people (Of all ages) just enjoy them. (Just like people enjoy owning and using classic cars)
Remember a personal opinion is just that, personal, and that everybody will not agree with another person's view, is what makes life interesting. (How boring life would be if everybody liked the same)
BTW. You will find those that use, and treasure legacy formats have been into streaming for years, (Thats how a lot of the youngsters got into legacy formats) so to claim that they are backwards is a complete and utter nonsense.

Bill

 

[twinkletoes]

If you look at streaming services, most use remastered files rather than the originals (And many of them are substandard to the originals (The loudness wars really killed quality), therefore if you want the best, you have no option but to go for the originals.
As to TVs, then they have been in flux for a good 25yrs and its highly unlikely it will ever change, as there will always be some improvement around the corner.
Interesting article on sales of media have just been posted on WHF here which proves that legacy formats are not just a fad, but that people (Of all ages) just enjoy them. (Just like people enjoy owning and using classic cars)
Remember a personal opinion is just that, personal, and that everybody will not agree with another person's view, is what makes life interesting. (How boring life would be if everybody liked the same)
BTW. You will find those that use, and treasure legacy formats have been into streaming for years, (Thats how a lot of the youngsters got into legacy formats) so to claim that they are backwards is a complete and utter nonsense.

Bill

At this point Bill you might as well be taking to a toddler that constantly asks why.

 

[podknocker]

At this point Bill you might as well be taking to a toddler that constantly asks why.

I hope your not suggesting I'm a toddler, with your cowardly condascending comments. If you've got an issue with my (correct) view of mastering and vinyl being a lower res and inferior format to CD, then you need to explain to me directly how vinyl could ever be a higher quality format, using the same masters used for CDs and streaming platforms, considering vinyl is physically incapable of preserving and reproducing the same amount of data. Vinyl can never reach the same quality as CD, or a newer format. Every single technical specification of vinyl is worse than that of CD, or streaming files, using the same masters. You are, like many on this forum, in a vinyl cult and I've realised that you will never see, nor seek, the truth about the recording, mastering and reproduction of the highest quality studio files. There's an entrenched state of vinyl worship here and it's tragic that people won't accept newer formats are more capable of accurately reproducing music with the same masters. There's no evidence that streaming platforms are not using origiinal masters where possible. A modern studio recording, held at 24bit 192kHz on a hard drive will be stored on Tidal for example and this can be reproduced on a modern streamer with no loss of quality. Anyone who thinks this recording quality could be transferred to vinyl with no loss of quality is in a world of fantasy and delusion.

 

[twinkletoes]

I hope you’re not suggesting I'm a toddler, with your cowardly condascending comments. If you've got an issue with my (correct) view of mastering, vinyl being a lower res and inferior format to CD, then you need to explain to me directly how vinyl could ever be a higher quality format, using the same masters used for CDs and streaming platforms, considering vinyl is physically incapable of preserving and reproducing the same amount of data. Vinyl can never reach the same quality as CD, or a newer format. Every single technical specification of vinyl is worse than that of CD, or streaming files, using the same masters. You are, like many on this forum, in a vinyl cult and I've realised that you will never see, nor seek, the truth about the recording, mastering and reproduction of the highest quality studio files. There's an entrenched state of vinyl worship here and it's tragic that people won't accept newer formats are more capable of accurately reproducing music with the same masters. There's no evidence that streaming platforms are not using origiinal masters where possible. A modern studio recording, held at 24bit 192kHz on a hard drive will be stored on Tidal for example and this can be reproduced on a modern streamer with no loss of quality. Anyone who thinks this recording quality could be transferred to vinyl with no loss of quality is in a world of fantasy and delusion.

Yeah basically and you’re proving my point!

Dude you make out I listen to nothing but vinyl. I’ve been streaming for 25 or so years give it a break.

Cowardly, condescending, that’s a little rich my man🤣 no issue, just parts of you’re understanding are wrong. As are probably mine.

Any how I got as far as “ you need explain to me” (and some other little bits).

Let me put it like this, the difference between modern vinyl and cd quality files in the real world is next to 0, think what you like that’s the reality of it. End of.

I don’t need to prove it to you, it’s there free for all. You can download samples, if you can hear differences you have better ears than me.

Which is why I enjoy my hifi the way I like, safe in the knowledge I’m not really missing much at all If anything. Your precious Spotify on the other hand humm lots to miss there! In all seriousness I can’t hear the difference between that and cd either in most cases.

Beyond that I can’t read your stupid long post with no page breaks. I’m sure you’re flinging as many if not more insults than you have ever received from me.

Just enjoy it dude, your way! I quite simply don’t f%#king care. I’ve got far more important things to worry about these days! That go beyond telling people “did you try turning it on and off”

 

[podknocker]

Yeah basically and you’re proving my point!

Dude you make out I listen to nothing but vinyl. I’ve been streaming for 25 or so years give it a break.

Cowardly, condescending, that’s a little rich my man🤣 no issue, just parts of you’re understanding are wrong. As are probably mine.

Any how I got as far as “ you need explain to me” (and some other little bits).

Let me put it like this, the difference between modern vinyl and cd quality files in the real world is next to 0, think what you like that’s the reality of it. End of.

I don’t need to prove it to you, it’s there free for all. You can download samples, if you can hear differences you have better ears than me.

Which is why I enjoy my hifi the way I like, safe in the knowledge I’m not really missing much at all If anything. Your precious Spotify on the other hand humm lots to miss there! In all seriousness I can’t hear the difference between that and cd either in most cases.

Beyond that I can’t read your stupid long post with no page breaks. I’m sure you’re flinging as many if not more insults than you have ever received from me.

Just enjoy it dude, your way! I quite simply don’t f%#king care. I’ve got far more important things to worry about these days! That go beyond telling people “did you try tuning it on and off”

If you can't hear the difference between CD and Spotify, that's probably why you listen to vinyl and think it's the best thing ever. Maybe people listen to vinyl and accept its limitations, because they can't tell the difference between vinyl and superior, modern playback methods. Perhaps all these people worshipping vinyl have poor hearing and literally can't appreciate CD and streaming. These people possibly resent others for having the ability to discern the difference between vinyl and newer tech and that's why they don't see the point in the latest formats. That's the only thing I can think of that explains this differing viewpoint. Modern recordings via modern kit sound better than modern and older recordings on old technologies such as vinyl. It's scary that people still equate vinyl to state of the art reproduction methods. I made the font bigger as you seem to struggle with longer paragraphs.

 

[RTHerringbone]

Still totally missing the point 😂

 

[Al ears]

I hope your not suggesting I'm a toddler, with your cowardly condascending comments. If you've got an issue with my (correct) view of mastering and vinyl being a lower res and inferior format to CD, then you need to explain to me directly how vinyl could ever be a higher quality format, using the same masters used for CDs and streaming platforms, considering vinyl is physically incapable of preserving and reproducing the same amount of data. Vinyl can never reach the same quality as CD, or a newer format. Every single technical specification of vinyl is worse than that of CD, or streaming files, using the same masters. You are, like many on this forum, in a vinyl cult and I've realised that you will never see, nor seek, the truth about the recording, mastering and reproduction of the highest quality studio files. There's an entrenched state of vinyl worship here and it's tragic that people won't accept newer formats are more capable of accurately reproducing music with the same masters. There's no evidence that streaming platforms are not using origiinal masters where possible. A modern studio recording, held at 24bit 192kHz on a hard drive will be stored on Tidal for example and this can be reproduced on a modern streamer with no loss of quality. Anyone who thinks this recording quality could be transferred to vinyl with no loss of quality is in a world of fantasy and delusion.

Unfortunately the same master is never used for all vinyl, CD and streaming purposes. As your 'correct' view of mastering should be aware.

 

[twinkletoes]

If you can't hear the difference between CD and Spotify, that's probably why you listen to vinyl and think it's the best thing ever. Maybe people listen to vinyl and accept its limitations, because they can't tell the difference between vinyl and superior, modern playback methods. Perhaps all these people worshipping vinyl have poor hearing and literally can't appreciate CD and streaming. These people possibly resent others for having the ability to discern the difference between vinyl and newer tech and that's why they don't see the point in the latest formats. That's the only thing I can think of that explains this differing viewpoint. Modern recordings via modern kit sound better than modern and older recordings on old technologies such as vinyl. It's scary that people still equate vinyl to state of the art reproduction methods. I made the font bigger as you seem to struggle with longer paragraphs.

Why would making the fonts bigger make it easier to follow a paragraph? Correctly formatted spacing does! I think your trying be smart but you're making yourself look like a pleb chap, Im dyslexic and I even know what you're typing isn't a paragraph and thats in both cases.

I don't worship vinyl its not a religion.

It's been proven many can't hear It. And I did say "in most cases". (just in case you missed it)And I doubt you can hear the difference, bass is the primary deficiency in Spotify and your speakers tap out at around 50hz or so, as for the HF well most struggle to hear it so thats neither here nor there. And also believe you speakers are a bit shy in the area as well, SOOOOO. I dont know what you're hearing, must by confirmation bias.

But anyway it begs the question why do you use such a gimped service if you can hear these differences? Maybe you listen to Spotify and accept its limitations, because you can't tell the difference between vinyl and superior, legacy and higher bit rate playback methods. Perhaps all those who worshipping Spotify have poor hearing and literally can't appreciate apple music/qobuz/tidal, CD and vinyl🙄

Anyhow the point I made is in the real world modern playback devices be damed when push comes to shove, in all likely hood you'd not be able to discern the difference between any format. As I said the samples are out there free to download listen for yourself!

OR sit back and relax and enjoy system the way you want to.