Will this valve amp drive my proac speakers?

[pyrrhon]

So Im looking for a tube amplifier and have questions. I want to know if its safe to assume that 10 watt tube amps is enough to drive my proac 148? Proac recommand 15 watts but isnt a 10 watt quality tube amp more powerfull then a 15 watts solid state? Does 15 watt recommandation apply to SS or Tube? Ive seen claims that 10 watt tube drives like a 40 watt SS is that true? Can anyone clarify this for me please. More info : The proac studio 148 are 91db 4ohmsThe amplifier im interested in is a Finale Audio f208, it has a 4ohms speaker out and pretty good output transformers and power supply.

 

[CnoEvil]

Proac are designed with Tube Amps in mind. I can't comment on that specific amp, but if it's got a robust power supply, it should be OK, provided you're not holding raves.

You could speak to the amp manufacturer, if you can't hear it for yourself.

 

[Al ears]

Good suggestion from CnoEvil.

As far as I am aware 10 watts is exactly that and it doesn't matter what type of amplifier is being measured.

Having said that a 91dB speaker is pretty efficient and unless you want disco-like volume it should drive the ProAcs OK.

 

[lindsayt]

Assuming the amplifiers have been measured / specified in the same way, watts are watts.

However, valve amps generally soft clip, solid state hard clip. So the first few dbs of clipping from a valve amp might be somewhat masked by distortion from the speakers.

And simple power specifications don't tell you how well the amplifier will subjectively cope with the load of the speaker, control the bass cones to maintain tight bass, not get in the way of the music for a clear, focused, natural, dynamic sound.

If you can try that valve amp, or a similar one without facing a financial loss then go ahead and try it. It's your music, your ears, your speakers.

Based on the demos I've done, I have a strong preference for SET amplifiers over push pulls. Seems daft to me to go for a 10 watt push pull when you can get 8 watts from a 300b SET and 15 watts from a 211 SET.

 

[pyrrhon]

Assuming the amplifiers have been measured / specified in the same way, watts are watts.

However, valve amps generally soft clip, solid state hard clip. So the first few dbs of clipping from a valve amp might be somewhat masked by distortion from the speakers.

And simple power specifications don't tell you how well the amplifier will subjectively cope with the load of the speaker, control the bass cones to maintain tight bass, not get in the way of the music for a clear, focused, natural, dynamic sound.

If you can try that valve amp, or a similar one without facing a financial loss then go ahead and try it. It's your music, your ears, your speakers.

Based on the demos I've done, I have a strong preference for SET amplifiers over push pulls. Seems daft to me to go for a 10 watt push pull when you can get 8 watts from a 300b SET and 15 watts from a 211 SET.

In a valve amp there is the output transformers that makes the amp react differently to speaker impedence variations, again I confirm many 300b set owners claiming their amp is loud like a 50 watt ss and same comment from guitarists too claiming a ratio around 4 or 5.

I had a 6watt set till it burned and it sounded more bassy and real then many ss at nearly 10 times the rated wattage. It was a very cheap valve amp without protective circuits so when something went wrong it stayed on and many parts burned. Another thing was the smell because Chinese cover the transformers with toluene a very nasty and bad smelling chemical.

I'll stay away from Chinese product wich means a 300b made in Canada for me and they are sadly too expensive for my actual budget. Tube rolling would be very expensive and limited too. So class A pull push seems the best compromise. The particular amp I'm looking for has been recommended for sounding tubey and having a bassy dark color.

I sent a letter to proac and will inform this thread when they answer. If they don't scare me away I'll order next week.

 

[Covenanter]

Amazing! Apparently watts are different between valve and ss amplifiers. I must quickly write this up and win my Nobel prize.

Chris

 

[lindsayt]

pyrrhon, I totally agree with everything you say. It's not the number of watts but the quality of watts, especially the first 0.1 watts that's important in an amplifier.

My 300b starting smoldering once. It was a prototype amp, made in Canada. It's possible that using it on UK mains voltage contributed to this, or it's possible that some of the capacitors weren't sufficiently specced voltage wise, because it was a prototype. Anyway I got it fixed and the capacitors uprated for £80. Which is a benefit of a lot of SET amps: simple design and point to point wiring, making them easy to fix when they go wrong.

My 2 watt 45 SET amp was made in California by Tube Audio Lab. Cost me £1250 new. He makes Western Electric 91A 300b clones too.

I'd be happy to bring both my SET's to your place to see what you think of them with your speakers.

And I prefer amplifiers that don't sound "tubey". I prefer amps that sound better (more realistic) than anything else.

 

[Macspur]

Sugden amps are known to be a fine match with ProAc... I used to have the combo and can vouch for it.

Alternatively, Electrocompaniet or Abrahamson.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[lindsayt]

Macspur, you may well be right. 10 watt valve amps are the flat track bullies of the amplifier world. Proac 148's are not particularly a flat track. So a decent solid state amp, such as the ones you mentioned might be the best overall solution.

Pyrrhon should keep an open mind and try a few different amps.

 

[pyrrhon]

Sugden amps are known to be a fine match with ProAc... I used to have the combo and can vouch for it.

I'll probably try that to ! The thing is Ill keep my naim and have the tube and probably a class a Sugden down the road. I still have my older spendors s6e too. There is something about tube that I miss and feel that the proac will make it much better then my spendors, so my next amp is a tube, in a few years I'll sell the extra amps and speaker and keep what I like better. To make comparison over a long period of time will be great ! I'll truly know what I'm talking about and what I like.

For the idiot comment up there should I really care explaining the guy that I'm talking about a rated x watt amp and and speaker interaction with tube vs ss. And not the electrical definition of a watt. Well probably not he certainly feels fine jumping on anything his simple mind can protest upon to provide him a feeling of being good at something.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Assuming the amplifiers have been measured / specified in the same way, watts are watts.

However, valve amps generally soft clip, solid state hard clip. So the first few dbs of clipping from a valve amp might be somewhat masked by distortion from the speakers.

And simple power specifications don't tell you how well the amplifier will subjectively cope with the load of the speaker, control the bass cones to maintain tight bass, not get in the way of the music for a clear, focused, natural, dynamic sound.

If you can try that valve amp, or a similar one without facing a financial loss then go ahead and try it. It's your music, your ears, your speakers.

Based on the demos I've done, I have a strong preference for SET amplifiers over push pulls. Seems daft to me to go for a 10 watt push pull when you can get 8 watts from a 300b SET and 15 watts from a 211 SET.

Totally agree with you on the SET preference. I love the sound of my Unison Research S8 SET Amp. - All glorious 24 watts of it!

I used to have a 12 watt Unison Research SET Amp which used KT88's. It drove ProAc D18's very nicely in my (then) listening room.

 

[Rethep]

I think the amount of power is relevant in a way, considering ss vs. tube. The tube-amp can sound more powerful, but a ss will give you more 'slam' in general. An amp that has only excellent 'slam' will sound boring to me, as i have found out. Once you like tubes you almost never go back! A hybrid is also no alternative to me! And sorry, although it has some quality, no Sugden.

I have a powerful tube-amp (45W) but i think it never uses all of it's power. The most important 'thing' in sound i like, is 'ambiance' and the feeling that 'i am dreaming' and start imagining about the 'story of the music'. Tubes, coupled to excellent speakers, do that so well for me, that the one (only) thing 'slam' that they are less good at, is easily forgiven. I also never listen to eardamaging levels, but i still like it not too low volume.

The only way for you is to try and find out, which you intent as i read.

Good luck! Tubes forever!

 

[Rethep]

I love the sound of my Unison Research S8 SET Amp.

I auditioned speakers once with a UR S6, in a hifishop. With my (then) Epos ES-11's it sounded like 'heaven'.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Assuming the amplifiers have been measured / specified in the same way, watts are watts.

However, valve amps generally soft clip, solid state hard clip. So the first few dbs of clipping from a valve amp might be somewhat masked by distortion from the speakers.

And simple power specifications don't tell you how well the amplifier will subjectively cope with the load of the speaker, control the bass cones to maintain tight bass, not get in the way of the music for a clear, focused, natural, dynamic sound.

If you can try that valve amp, or a similar one without facing a financial loss then go ahead and try it. It's your music, your ears, your speakers.

Based on the demos I've done, I have a strong preference for SET amplifiers over push pulls. Seems daft to me to go for a 10 watt push pull when you can get 8 watts from a 300b SET and 15 watts from a 211 SET.

In a valve amp there is the output transformers that makes the amp react differently to speaker impedence variations, again I confirm many 300b set owners claiming their amp is loud like a 50 watt ss and same comment from guitarists too claiming a ratio around 4 or 5.

I had a 6watt set till it burned and it sounded more bassy and real then many ss at nearly 10 times the rated wattage. It was a very cheap valve amp without protective circuits so when something went wrong it stayed on and many parts burned. Another thing was the smell because Chinese cover the transformers with toluene a very nasty and bad smelling chemical.

I'll stay away from Chinese product wich means a 300b made in Canada for me and they are sadly too expensive for my actual budget. Tube rolling would be very expensive and limited too. So class A pull push seems the best compromise. The particular amp I'm looking for has been recommended for sounding tubey and having a bassy dark color.

I sent a letter to proac and will inform this thread when they answer. If they don't scare me away I'll order next week.

Don't know why you think 'tube rolling' is expensive and limited. There are many sources for 'New Old Stock' tubes online at very reasonable prices in many varieties and from many old factories. To me, Tube Rolling is part of the appeal of a Valve Amp and provides a way to fine tune the sound you want.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I love the sound of my Unison Research S8 SET Amp.

I auditioned speakers once with a UR S6, in a hifishop. With my (then) Epos ES-11's it sounded like 'heaven'.

Unison Research make some of the best Tube Amps at their respective price points on the market. Build quality and craftsmanship is exemplary which makes both long-term and second-hand ownership easy and relatively worry-free.

Not only that, and more importantly, they sound fantastic too!

 

[lindsayt]

300b's are expensive to roll.

845's less so. Valves like 2a3's are quite affordable.

One of the reasons for me initially checking out a 300b SET was because of the price of replacing four 300b's on my push pull.

I've been looking to build up a lifetime's supply of certain types of valve - as there's the possibility that they may go up hugely in price - especially the ones where the modern versions aren't as good as the old ones.

 

[Infiniteloop]

300b's are expensive to roll.

845's less so. Valves like 2a3's are quite affordable.

One of the reasons for me initially checking out a 300b SET was because of the price of replacing four 300b's on my push pull.

I've been looking to build up a lifetime's supply of certain types of valve - as there's the possibility that they may go up hugely in price - especially the ones where the modern versions aren't as good as the old ones.

I've found that rolling PreAmp valves makes more difference than rolling Power Valves. So I roll those and don't bother rolling 845's. They're also an awful lot cheaper.

I too have been stockpiling valves: Siemens silverplates are my favourites, but I also like some of the 12AU7 varieties like Brimar 13D4's...etc.

 

[Rethep]

Unison Research make some of the best Tube Amps at their respective price points on the market. Build quality and craftsmanship is exemplary which makes both long-term and second-hand ownership easy and relatively worry-free.

Not only that, and more importantly, they sound fantastic too!

Yes and yes! But probably second to mine, which is build only on order! It is no SET, but has 3 double end-triodes in parallel, per channel. The whole amp just uses pure triodes and very special, good output transformers! It sounds very open, like a UR, but also very powerful!

 

[Infiniteloop]

Unison Research make some of the best Tube Amps at their respective price points on the market. Build quality and craftsmanship is exemplary which makes both long-term and second-hand ownership easy and relatively worry-free.

Not only that, and more importantly, they sound fantastic too!

Yes and yes! But probably second to mine, which is build only on order! It is no SET, but has 3 double end-triodes in parallel, per channel. The whole amp just uses pure triodes and very special, good output transformers! It sounds very open, like a UR, but also very powerful!

I'd love to hear one someday.

 

[pyrrhon]

I love the sound of my Unison Research S8 SET Amp.

I auditioned speakers once with a UR S6, in a hifishop. With my (then) Epos ES-11's it sounded like 'heaven'.

Unison Research make some of the best Tube Amps at their respective price points on the market. Build quality and craftsmanship is exemplary which makes both long-term and second-hand ownership easy and relatively worry-free.

Not only that, and more importantly, they sound fantastic too!

Im thinking about buying canadian: my home country. Finale audio is my best bet, they build it here and use canadian Hammond transfo that are very well rated. They also sell directly. They have a lot of models and custom options too. The hard thing is tubes rolling because some of their very interesting amps like the 7189 offers fewer tube rolling options and low availability would force me to stock for the future wich makes it expansive. it needs 4 7189 tubes and I should stock 3 sets of 4 to be future safe. making an extra 12 x 30$ !

 

[Rethep]

Isn' t Cary Audio Design (CAD) a Canadian brand ?

I don't care for tube-rolling. My amp is sounding that good that it has almost nothing to wish for! And the smaal thing (little tighter bass) is mostly because of the speakers (open baffle type). So no worries, just enjoying the sound!

Good luck with your tube-amp choice!