Why is second-hand Leema gear taking a huge hit?

steve4232

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Two independent dealers, one of whom sells Leema gear, have both told me that they won't take in used Leema products unless they are really cheap. Apparently no one wants it anymore. Did they "before"? Cruising this forum I don't see hardly any recommendations for their gear compared to other brands at similar price levels. Why is this? Do dealers not push or encourage auditions of their gear?

I've heard rumblings about the financial status of the business in recent years but do everyday consumers of audio gear follow these things all that closely when they buy? I've never thought to ask a delaer during an audition "Yes, it sounds marvellous but is the manufacturer financially sound too?"

Personally speaking I haven't heard any CDP under £5000 that I prefer in sonic terms alone to the Antila IIS ECO. In comparison to the competition it sounds analogue, rich, smooth, detailed, with great bass weight and a near perfect tonal balance. But apart from this magazine who else is shouting about them?

Are the dealers to blame?
 

Tarxman

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I can't speak for Leema personally, but I have dealt with my fair share of consumers over the years, and there certainly is a concern if/when a brand goes bust or is financial trouble. I think it's more from a servicing/parts standpoint more than anything. Myself, if I like a product, I buy it and live with it!
 

Crocodile

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Two Pulse Mk I amps have sold recently on Ebay for £450-500 which suggests to me there isn't too much of an issue. Don't know about CDPs but I'd expect them all to take a hit these days with the ever increasing number of universal disc players/streaming devices available.

Leema certainly had some issues recently but hopefully that's all behind them now. If specific dealers have an issue with the kit then I guess you'd have to ask them why.
 

steve4232

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Yes, that sounds a bit like me, if I want something I'm not likely to be persuaded to look elsewhere because someone somewhere claims the manufacturer's future is a little rocky. AFAIK, I should add, there is nothing for a consumer to worry about with Leema - the retailers "concern" had apparently arisen due to the news that the original investor(s) had pulled out but I understand that a replacement has been found and a brand re-launch could be on the cards any day soon. Watch this space?
 

cheyworth

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I have been searching for a Hydra 1 or 2 for a few months now and they don't come along very often (neither do the CD players). so i would expect the price to remain high for this reason.
 

expat_mike

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There are still plenty of posts on this forum about Leema, including this from a few months ago.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/leema-an-update

I think followers of this forum do pay attention to the financial health of the suppliers - because if a supplier ceases to trade, there is instantly an issue with "who will be responsible for honouring warranties, testing faulty kit, etc? This is becoming even more important these days, now that a lot of hifi equipment, contains elements utilising software for streaming, DAC, internet radio, DSP, etc plus the associated apps that run on phones and tablets. It is only natural to ask who will be providing the regular six monthly software updates (to enhance functionality) or app updates?

Perhaps it may be better to reinterpret the original question in terms of, the forum members are not interested in the financial health from the point of view of buying shares etc, but are interested in terms of the ability of the firm to keep trading.

Once individuals start to have doubts about whether a firm will continue trading, then they become wary about buying their products, and the potential customer base for the firm becomes smaller. Simple supply v demand would then result in the price that the market will pay for the firms products decreasing. This will apply to both the new and second hand hifi equipment. Given that dealers must make some money on second hand equipment, then the price that they will buy the equipment from the public drops, which is what you have found.

Leema are in the same position as any other firm, ie once rumours about a firms trading ability surface and become persistant, then the firms customer base can rapidly disappear in a self feeding spiral down to the point of no return, followed by stop trading. That is why firms release the customer and press releases, in an attempt to stop their customers deserting, before the point of no return is reached.

I have never owned Leema gear, so I cannot pass a judgement on whether their gear is good or bad, but they obviously still have many forum members who like it. Leema must be hoping that this will ensure their ability to continue trading. Collective customer psychology is a powerful, and sometimes unpredictable force, that all firms have to hope will ensure a market for their products.
 

steve4232

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I've actually visited the current Leema factory and wondered why it had another company's name on the building. Thanks to the link to the article above, that now expains everything. They have partnered up with an electronics outfit who make some of their circuit boards. The new Leema site is actually one of that companies factories. "I see now!" said the blind man.

Actually it is a little humbling sometimes to see and hear that some of these smaller UK audio companies are just like a lot of the rest of us: struggling in difficult economic times. Sometimes it is easy to think that big audio gear must be made by armour plated super-humans that are totally impervious to economic difficulties and we expect them to be there when and if we need them.
 
There are several things going on: First, as mentioned the company was in financial trouble and taken over by another company. Second, generally speaking, there are few retailers around the country (David @ Frank Harvey has mentioned before they had issues with promoting their gear beyond the usual outlets). But this is the same with many other companies i.e. Lavardin, Exposure, ATC, Kudos.... and last, they just don't retain their value as well as Naim, Arcam and others. As in the same way Alfa Romeo don't hold their value compared to some Japanese or German cars.

But in terms of build and sound quality they are as good as any make.
 

steve4232

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I'm not sure I'd use the Alfa Romeo analogy, but yes, I agree and know exactly what you're talking about! :grin:

Incidentally, you might share my enthusiasm and appreciation for Leema in the "CD player to retrieve lost bass" thread. The latest CDP shreds the competition in my opinion at that particular price point. I really love the sound but unfortunately ownership of faulty products doesn't always install confidence and I will be letting my CDP go shortly. It is the best sounding product IMHO at the price but I'll sadly settle for less with another unit from a more long-term established brand, a bit like those German cars! This will be (hopefully) my last CDP so I want something I can 100% rely upon.

Incidentally we crossed swords a bit at the beginning over the Leema issue I had. I note today from reading the press release that the problems from customer returns appears to be exclusively regarding the drive of the CDP; the one part Leema doesn't make itself! I hope, for the future survival of the business they look at Arcam's track record of vetting and testing third party products. In 25 years I've owned 4 Arcam CDP's and not one of them has ever faulted. Actually, listening to the ECO does remind me a little of the first time I heard an Arcam. I think Leema's equipment is similar in sonic signature, albeit a more up-market version - analogue like and smooth with rolled-off top end but never dull or unexciting and with good low frequency retrieval / reproduction.
 

iQ Speakers

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I think you hit the nail on the head, I suspect their recent financial "situation" was caused by their "Stealth".

Although I own one it’s not a brand I feel passionate about and I don’t know why? I bought the Pulse because of reputation, PP and its price/performance relative to its new price.

It sounds awesome and is built superbly. However I don’t want one like I want a Rega or more recently a Sugden or Electrocompaniet or even more recently something like a Sonneteer. Icon Audio or something even more obscure.

I think the problem lies in its marketing, USP what is it? Styling is this the problem?
 

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